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Condemned by History cleanup thread

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Condemned by History is a problem trope for many reasons. It leads to edit warring and confusion over what qualifies. In this thread we'll look for bad examples, and look for feedback. Here are the guidelines for this trope:

  1. The franchise has to be truly popular and loved at first. Things that are So Bad, It's Horrible don't count.
  2. Simply losing popularity isn't enough. We need to see an actual backlash, with liking it being considered bizarre. Otherwise, every not-so-famous film or concluded television series would be here.

Let's go!

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 16th 2024 at 4:23:01 AM

EatYourHeartOut from San Diego, California, 'Murica Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
#1201: Feb 20th 2017 at 9:33:20 AM

Hey guys. I'm new to the thread and was wondering if M. Night Shyamalan was voted down. I knew he was discussed but wasn't sure what the outcome was. I think with the success of Split he's firmly not Dt D.

edited 20th Feb '17 9:33:38 AM by EatYourHeartOut

"I am as stupid as I look, sir, but if I can help, I will."
Spinosegnosaurus77 Ramen Fairy from Ontario, Canada Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
EatYourHeartOut from San Diego, California, 'Murica Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
#1203: Feb 20th 2017 at 2:04:34 PM

@Spinosegnosaurus 77 thanks for the update! I remember his name being on the subpage for a long time but he was always a weird fit. While there was a clear rise and fall, his early work was for the most part still beloved, and now that he's making a comeback he definitely doesn't fit. Glad to see it's settled.

"I am as stupid as I look, sir, but if I can help, I will."
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#1204: Feb 22nd 2017 at 10:28:11 PM

Ok, I confess, I just tried to take a second pass through the music section, and got bogged down and gave up. I think there's a fair amount there that should be cut, though, and even more that should be trimmed down from its current Wall of Text status.

Just to start with: can disco be deader than disco? [lol]

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
EatYourHeartOut from San Diego, California, 'Murica Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
#1205: Feb 23rd 2017 at 4:41:01 PM

@Xtifr first, haha. I'll take a look at the subpage. Anything in particular you feel needs cutting?

"I am as stupid as I look, sir, but if I can help, I will."
AreYouTyler Since: Aug, 2016
#1206: Feb 23rd 2017 at 11:53:05 PM

Somebody added Avicii back to the music subpage. Should we remove him? Nothing in that entry says anything about a backlash.

crazyrabbits Crazyrabbits from Mississauga, ON, Canada Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Crazyrabbits
#1207: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:45:47 AM

^ Nowhere near DTD. A Hatedom is also not DTD.

Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#1208: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:50:06 PM

Well...to start with, there's Billy Ray Cyrus. A one-hit wonder overshadowed by his more popular daughter. Yes, his more recent stuff has been scorned, somewhat. But I don't think there was any sort of backlash against...well, against his hit. At least, not any more than any other overplayed hit. I mean, it never was my cup of tea, but I haven't heard of any active hatred for his older stuff.

There's a bunch more I'm dubious about, but that was the first one where I at least recognized the name and had serious doubts.

Oh, I'm also dubious about the whole "class of '89" section under Country. (Again, not my cup of tea in general, but...) At the least, it's a mess that needs a major re-write, because I can't make heads nor tails of what, if anything, is supposed to be dead there. And I have serious doubts about the parts that I can make out.

edited 24th Feb '17 2:52:27 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#1209: Feb 24th 2017 at 8:55:23 PM

Oh, there was MASSIVE hate for Billy Ray Cyrus, but as you say, like him or hate him, I don't think anyone ever really saw him as anything other than a One-Hit Wonder. The stuff about critical dislike for him strikes me as more like Critical Dissonance than true retroactive backlash. I'm fine with cutting that.

I'd also tend to agree with you on the "Class of '89" thing; it's vague and rambly and doesn't make a good case for itself. If someone wants to take a crack at rewriting it, great, otherwise, I'd call it a good candidate for cutting.

edited 24th Feb '17 8:57:02 PM by HighCrate

EatYourHeartOut from San Diego, California, 'Murica Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
#1210: Feb 24th 2017 at 9:13:51 PM

I'd be fine with cutting Billy Ray Cyrus but keeping Achy Brakey Heart. Cyrus himself is more just forgotten by non-country fans, but the song really was inescapable for a long time and is now nothing more than a punch-line. Although the hatred isn't nearly as strong as it once was, so I won't fight too hard if consensus disagrees.

Also, pretty much every entry on that page is a giant wall of text. It needs major cutting but I don't know where to start.

"I am as stupid as I look, sir, but if I can help, I will."
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#1211: Feb 24th 2017 at 9:53:05 PM

Cutting Billy Ray the performer but keeping "Achey-Breaky Heart" sounds like the best way to go for me as well.

Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#1212: Feb 25th 2017 at 6:43:09 AM

Agreed; lose him, keep the song.

Spinosegnosaurus77 Ramen Fairy from Ontario, Canada Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Theatre_Maven_3695 from Ontario, Canada (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#1215: Feb 25th 2017 at 9:54:47 AM

My only concern there is that almost any One-Hit Wonder / Ear Worm song you can think of has a certain amount of backlash associated with it after it inevitably runs its course, so giving Achey Breaky Heart its own entry might set a bad precedent.

That said, an argument can be made that the backlash against that particular song was exceptional even by One-Hit Wonder standards. Weird Al even made a parody of it that, instead of following his usual lyrical schtick of being about junk food or trash TV or whatever, was solely about how annoying and terrible it is.

Spinosegnosaurus77 Ramen Fairy from Ontario, Canada Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Ramen Fairy
#1216: Feb 25th 2017 at 10:02:04 AM

[up] The general consensus in this thread seems to be that exceptions can be made for one-hit wonders if the backlash against them was significantly more severe than usual.

Peace is the only battle worth waging.
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#1217: Feb 25th 2017 at 3:49:18 PM

Yeah, I'm down with changing the entry to be about the song. (I admit that I hated it the first time I heard it, but I've been trying not to let my personal prejudices affect my judgement here. But it does sound like it had the appropriate levels of backlash. :)

And no one is speaking up for the "Class of '89" entry?

Finally, the Toby Keith entry: at the very least, it needs to be trimmed down to the relevant facts, rather than several-paragraph-long recap of the man's entire career! But I'm also pretty dubious about the entry. It seems to establish that he's lost popularity, and his new stuff is not being well-received at all, but I don't see the backlash extending to his old stuff. It either needs to be rewritten to explain how his whole repertoire is in disrepute or...cut.

edited 25th Feb '17 3:49:38 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
Spinosegnosaurus77 Ramen Fairy from Ontario, Canada Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Ramen Fairy
#1218: Feb 25th 2017 at 3:55:39 PM

[up] The Sugarland entry is even more dubious.

Peace is the only battle worth waging.
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#1219: Feb 25th 2017 at 4:45:50 PM

I haven't gotten to the Groups section yet. :)

eta: But I agree. "Seems to be heading this way..." is a big, red flag!

edited 25th Feb '17 4:46:57 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#1220: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:42:21 PM

I'm also cautious about declaring a "backlash" being done by people who aren't really members of the demographic that likes the genre in the first place. It's easy to claim there's a backlash when you didn't much like it in the first place. So I'd like to hear from Country Music fans about whether Billy Ray and Keith have suffered a backlash or not, and whether they're regarded as a punchline, and if there's a reluctance to admit you ever liked them in the first place.

Spinosegnosaurus77 Ramen Fairy from Ontario, Canada Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Ramen Fairy
#1221: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:52:35 PM

My very limited experience with country fans tells me that they still like Toby Keith.

Peace is the only battle worth waging.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#1222: Feb 25th 2017 at 9:10:47 PM

That's mine, as well. I'm not a country fan, but since I do a lot of night driving in the middle of Flyover Country ( much of it in rural areas, country music stations are about 60% of what I can reliably get on the radio at night. He may not be all over the charts, but I hear him enough to think that he's not "just a punchline".

The other sub-bulletof the Class of 89, about Branson? That needs to go. Branson is still booming. It's no more a punchline now than it ever was. And it always was a joke to people outside its intended target demographic. There was no backlash.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#1223: Feb 26th 2017 at 4:10:14 PM

The backlash really needs to be with the people who were fans to begin with. If it's just the people who didn't like it to begin with who gets louder, then it's just a group of people who never liked it.

Check out my fanfiction!
HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#1224: Mar 15th 2017 at 7:00:21 PM

Troper Avon added an entry on jheri curl to the Fashion folder, which I deleted for lacking any retroactive backlash. He altered it substantially and added it back, with an edit reason stating that it now met the backlash requirement. Here is the latest form of the entry:

  • The conk hairstyle was very popular among African American men from the 1920s to The '60s. The term originates from Congolene (sometimes spelled Conkaline), one of the first products marketed for relaxing hair. It was popularized on Sanford And Son with the jingle: "If your hair is short and nappy, Congolene will make it happy". It was frequently seen on notable musicians such as Little Richard, Louis Jordan, Chuck Berry, The Temptations, and James Brown as well as actors such as Billy Dee Williams. It generally involved the use of a very alkaline hair product, often lye, to relax the kinkiness of natural African hair so that it could be straightened, waved or curled. The Black Pride/Consciousness movements of The '60s marked the end of the conk hairstyle and the beginning of embracing natural styles such as the Afro. Many at the time, including Malcolm X had criticized the conk hairstyle as attempting to emulate White European hair texture. The '80s and part of The '90s saw a brief resurgence of a milder form of the conk hairstyle in the Jheri Curl and S-Curl, actually named after a particular brand of relaxer. Once again, embracing of cultural consciousness and ethnic pride caused its waning and replacement by dreadlocks, braids and other "ethnic" hairstyles. This hairstyle appears to be all but extinct and definitely non-existent in African American men under a certain age. Note that this does not apply to the short wavy style that is achieved simply with pomades and doo-rags.

It definitely has more words compared to the old example, but I don't know that it has that much more relevant context. If anything, it now reads like an example of Popularity Polynomial, describing something that was in fashion, then went out of fashion due to cultural changes, then briefly came into fashion again, then went back out again.

I also find the arguments for retroactive backlash spurious. The new entry explains why one person (Malcolm X) disliked the style, but does not describe a widespread, near-universal backlash against it such that even those who once loved it now deride it.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#1225: Mar 15th 2017 at 7:22:49 PM

One last point about Toby Keith and Billy Ray Cyrus:

I just looked up their respective tour schedules: Toby's is solid but not superstar-level, he's got 21 locations booked between the 27th of May and the 27th of August. They aren't huge arenas or major metropolitan centers, but there are a good number of sizeable music festivals or large cities (for the state/province they're in.) I'd say no evidence of a career-killing backlash there.

Billy Ray: He's not touring anymore. Additionally, his own website doesn't appear to have been updated since September of last year. However, I can't find any indication of a real backlash causing his decline in popularity. I'd say both of them need to be cut for not meeting the criteria of both "universally popular" and suffering a backlash that left them "just a punchline."

Conk Hairstyles? I don't know, but that examples does sound convincing. I do recall a very charged feeling about the massively processed hairstyles in the 60's but I A) am white, so, not involved, and B) was a preteen at the time, so, not involved,

Because of those two factors, I won't argue that there wasn't a backlash, based on my own memory,

edited 15th Mar '17 7:29:17 PM by Madrugada


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