Condemned by History is a problem trope for many reasons. It leads to edit warring and confusion over what qualifies. In this thread we'll look for bad examples, and look for feedback. Here are the guidelines for this trope:
- The franchise has to be truly popular and loved at first. Things that are So Bad, It's Horrible don't count.
- Simply losing popularity isn't enough. We need to see an actual backlash, with liking it being considered bizarre. Otherwise, every not-so-famous film or concluded television series would be here.
Let's go!
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 16th 2024 at 4:23:01 AM
Mind of Mencia was kind of his biggest claim to fame. If the most successful the man ever got was the ninth-highest-rated show on a basic cable network, he was never ubiquitous enough to count.
That fits with my personal recollection, which was that Comedy Central promoted him like they were trying to make him the next Chappelle, and he just plain never caught on the way they wanted him to.
edited 2nd Jan '17 11:53:25 PM by HighCrate
Yeah, I'm not sure. Getting a regular TV series is pretty huge for a stand-up. Bigger than getting a spot on an ensemble show. Bigger than getting a one-time TV special. Far better than merely getting an album deal. And all of those are beyond even the hopes of your average stand-up. Really, I think the only way he could have done better is to have gotten a show on a major network instead of basic cable. And, as far as basic cable goes, Comedy Central is probably the top aspiration for a comic. They've turned several people into household names.
If Mencia's fame were the only question, I think I'd at least be leaning keep. (But, of course, it's not the only question.)
Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.On the basis of currently available evidence, I'll throw in a tenative keep for Mencia.
Peace is the only battle worth waging.I can't confirm the other European gigs (aside from the general media coverage at the time viewed the tour as 'successful'), but the stadia they performed in were similar to London's O2.
London's O2 has a capacity of 20,000 people. I don't think Nickelback sold out for the venue, but they did play to a 'packed' one. Something happened when they were supposed to be playing there (a bomb scare), and the tabloids whipped up a storm of panic over whether it would be cancelled (it wasn't). Judging by the reaction across the country, Nickelback still has a thriving British fan base at the very least. That's why I raised the question - I'm not a Nickelback fan myself, but I remember seeing the panic across the media and social media at the time. If they've got a thriving fandom and a thriving hatedom, that suggests some kind of Base Breaker to me.
edited 3rd Jan '17 7:47:16 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.GETTING a regular TV series is one thing. Making it a SUCCESSFUL one, in the sense of gathering an audience that feels passionately about you and your work, that's another thing.
I was squarely in the target demo at the time, and although I was never a huge fan of either Chappelle or Mencia, I remember Chappelle's fanbase. They loved him. LOVED him. Quoted him incessantly, considered him the height of comedic brilliance. He was up there with South Park as one of Comedy Central's heavy hitters. He wasn't just successful "for a standup comic." He was a breakout hit. He was a phenomenon.
I don't remember Mencia's fanbase, if he had one. I remember people thinking of him as the guy who was on after Chappelle.
Chappelle was as big as disco, he was everywhere, you couldn't get away from him. Mencia was nowhere near that level. He was always sort of... around... but that was it. Nobody was quoting him at school the next day. Nobody was excited about him. He was just... there.
edited 3rd Jan '17 8:48:23 PM by HighCrate
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As I've said before, DTD can be regional. Just because they're still big in Europe doesn't mean they're not DTD in America.
Apparently their last album (2014) debuted at number 4 on the US charts. And was #1 on the Rock, Alt-Rock, and Hard-Rock charts. Which, since their hatedom has been around for years, suggests it (the hatedom) isn't as large or powerful as it likes to think.
Cut the Andrew Dice Clay example. Yes, there was a downturn in the type of comedy he pulled, but it had more to do with oversaturation/people just moving towards a different type of comedy and less an ongoing backlash against his work. He continued to release comedy albums and star in TV shows through the 90s and into the 00s (Bless This House, Hitz, Entourage). He was even critically praised for his appearances on the HBO show Vinyl last year.
Cut Nickelback. If their albums are still selling, then this is a hatedom/Hype Backlash and not DTD.
Leaning towards cut on Mencia. Can't find anything on backlash besides a pair of articles (linked on his Wikipedia page) from the Wall Street Journal and Maxim Magazine claiming that he's one of the "worst comedians ever", which only tells me that a pair of publications (one of which is a pulp men's magazine) didn't like him. The rest seems to be all anecdotal or not supported well, although he doesn't have any comedy specials or appearances that have been released after 2011. (His Wiki article claims that he was running a restaurant chain for a couple years, from 2011 - 2013).
The biggest source of articles I can find about Mencia detail jokes he allegedly/actually stole, which may explain why he's hated by other comedians, but doesn't explain why he's hated by the public. The most prominent of these is a two-part podcast he had with a radio personality named Marc Maron, though the episode itself has scant few views from what I can tell (15k on Maron's own Youtube channel), and there's no other significant source of anger towards him. I can believe that he's a pariah, but I just don't see the kind of backlash DTD requires.
edited 4th Jan '17 9:47:56 AM by crazyrabbits
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A movie opening at #4 is considered a disaster. Is the same true of albums?
As Xfitr said before, I think we need to give the music page another look.
edited 4th Jan '17 2:09:50 PM by Spinosegnosaurus77
Peace is the only battle worth waging.I wasn't in the target demographic for Chappelle or Mencia: I still recall not being able to escape Chappelle-related references (heck, we had/have? a trope called This Is for Emphasis, Bitch!, named specifically as a shout out to Chappelle)) but the first I recall hearing anything about Mencia was when the joke-stealing thing made the news. So I'd tend toward cutting Mencia — he didn't have the the kind of overwhelming popularity that DTD requires.
I'd also cut Clay. The example itself says "the audience simply moved on". That's not a huge backlash driving even people who previously liked his work to not only abandon him, but to refuse to admit they ever really liked it in the first place.
^^ No, the music industry is different. An album debuting at #4 is decidedly not the same as a film (which costs tens, if not hundreds, of millions to produce and promote) comes in at #4.
I get the feeling that you're trying really hard to pigeonhole Nickelback into this. If their albums are still selling, then they still have a sizable fanbase and are thus not an example.
So, note that In the US Nickelback is Deader Than Disco, but it's not in other parts of the world? I think that would be acceptable; we do, after all, have David Hasselhoff Is Big In Germany.
Re a movie that opens at #4 not being in the same league as an album: Consider how many albums release in a given week — dozens, probably scores, possibly hundreds. And the music industry charts are top 40 or top 100. Now, how many movies open in the same weekend? Maybe half-a-dozen, on a big weekend? #4 out of 5 or 6 is not good. #4 out of 4 is abysmal.
However, I do think that we need to be careful about giving too much weight to box office and sales numbers. An artist or work can be huge within their target demographic and still be nowhere near the widespread phenomenon it needs to be to qualify. For instance, Biilly Ray Cyrus's "Achey-breaky heart" is the only one I really think comes close to qualifying — even if you weren't a country fan, you probably heard that song without seeking it out.
edited 5th Jan '17 4:21:40 PM by Madrugada
I'll concede on Nickelback, but should we cut Limp Bizkit & Creed too?
edited 5th Jan '17 5:20:10 PM by Spinosegnosaurus77
Peace is the only battle worth waging.Found this on YMMV/Bill Cosby:
- Deader Than Disco: After his sexual assault allegations came to light in 2014 and 2015, any work starring Cosby has essentially been forever tarnished in the public's eye, being at best ignored completely if not outright mocked.
I think this has been discussed before, but the example isn't very specific enough as it is. Thoughts anyone?
Backlash based on personal scandal, not a true retroactive judgment of the work. Might fit better under Overshadowed by Controversy, but it's not Deader Than Disco. Cut it.
The music page also featured several examples that focus on scandals rather than backlash against an artist's work. I've taken the liberty of cutting them.
Peace is the only battle worth waging.Someone should rewrite the laconic page.
"A once-popular work or creator developed a massive Hatedom and eventually died out like a fad."
Ironically, the part that telling readers to go back to main page is good enough.
"View unabridged version HERE, though it's old, silly and outdated, and nobody likes it anymore."
The following examples have recently been added to the main page:
- HBO production Game Of Thrones has fell into this territory now as people go for shows like The Catch, Mr Robot and Greys Anatomy because they have started to become tired of the Sword and Sorcery and Tangled Family Tree, as well as the more fantastical elements of the genre.
- The shows like The Catch, Mr. Robot and Grey's Anatomy have pushed Game of Thrones firmly into this due to having more relatable themes (bad relationships, fear of hacking/cybercrime, medical issues/the NHS) and protagonists who are not just generic good / bad-guy characters, and Story Arc s that are considered well-written. Game of Thrones still has a small cult following - as Reddit shows - but it's slowly being ebbed away as ABC's The Catch and Grey's Anatomy continue to be ratings juggernauts.
- My Space was the social media platform in the 2000's, boasting over 60 million users at the height of its popularity. However, due to the rise of competing social media sites (most especially Facebook) over the years, the site began hemorrhaging users who wanted to move on to other platforms. After founder and unofficial "mascot" Tom Anderson was fired, the site went through a change in management in 2010, attempting to rebrand itself as a "Social Entertainment" site. The site tried repeatedly to reinvent itself and attract back users, but most of the changes were poorly received by the few users still sticking around (mostly roleplayers, who would end up also leaving Myspace for other blogging platforms) and often reeked of Were Still Relevant Dammit-type desperation. After being bought and sold to a revolving door of companies and individuals, the site was Retooled into a virtual Facebook copy, while also deleting all the existing blogs, comments, and messages (or at least made them inaccessible) without any warning whatsoever, which did not amuse the remaining fanbase. Myspace is still around as a social networking site, albeit now with a heavier emphasis on music and entertainment. But between the existence of Facebook (Tom himself even stated that he much preferred Facebook) and other competing platforms, Myspace's Glory Days are nothing more than a distant memory and it's not likely to recapture any of that any day soon, being considered the Internet equivalent to a Dying Town. Anytime Myspace is ever talked about nowadays, it's often to laugh about how it seemed to be a breeding ground for Emo Teens and Attention Whores.
- Anita Sarkeesian and her Feminist Frequency series were originally quite well thought-of. The Tropes vs Women videos and her efforts to examine feminism in media got her a lot of positive attention - including guest stints on The Colbert Report, being invited to speak at universities and her videos even being used in classrooms. With this attention also came a massive Hatedom. While a good portion of it was harassment and personal attacks from misogynists, legitimate criticism of her material emerged as well. It was noted that her videos contained numerous Critical Research Failures (despite her claims that they were "double and triple checked"), employed Manipulative Editing on many occasions and she simply appeared to not understand a lot of things she criticised. She prepared to launch a new series examining women in video games, but was involved in a minor scandal when she raised money on Kickstarter and the donors appeared to have been scammed. While the new videos did eventually surface, it was quickly discovered that Anita had plagiarised most of the video game footage from YouTube and employed the same research mistakes and Manipulative Editing that the previous videos had. Backlash against her grew to even bigger heights, with numerous videos pointing out her mistakes and flaws in the critiques. As of 2016, Anita announced she was discontinuing the series, and the gigantic backlash resulted in very few people taking the original videos seriously.
Game of Thrones is not Deader Than Disco. That is massive misuse and needs to be burned with dragon fire immediately. Especially with fire.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanI see that Fighteer has already yanked the entry - messaging ~Merseyuser1 too. I am dubious about Feminist Frequency too, I don't think there is enough backlash. My Space on the other hand seems OK.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanSarkeesian might be Flame Bait, really, given how polarizing she is and how difficult separating the legitimate criticism from the assholes with agendas can be. Didn't know she was involved in a scam though; that's interesting.
edited 9th Jan '17 9:55:11 AM by HamburgerTime

I think that if initial popularity can be established for Mencia, then he could qualify for the trope. I remember him being pretty prominent at one point, and the backlash is certainly there. According to Wikipedia, Mind of Mencia's second season was Comedy Central's ninth-most popular program, which... doesn't sound particularly impressive.