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Condemned by History cleanup thread

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Condemned by History is a problem trope for many reasons. It leads to edit warring and confusion over what qualifies. In this thread we'll look for bad examples, and look for feedback. Here are the guidelines for this trope:

  1. The franchise has to be truly popular and loved at first. Things that are So Bad, It's Horrible don't count.
  2. Simply losing popularity isn't enough. We need to see an actual backlash, with liking it being considered bizarre. Otherwise, every not-so-famous film or concluded television series would be here.

Let's go!

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 16th 2024 at 4:23:01 AM

bowserbros No longer active. from Elsewhere Since: May, 2014
No longer active.
#2901: Jul 1st 2023 at 9:41:51 AM

I think that 4kids was overhated by the public because of bad business practices.

Whether or not the hate is excessive to you doesn't factor into this; Condemned by History only looks at whether something went from highly popular to highly detracted. Granted, 4kids always had their share of detractors, but consensus was to keep them on the grounds that their massive success with laypeople proved that their hatedom was a Vocal Minority at most until the company went bankrupt, at which point the majority opinion turned against them.

Edited by bowserbros on Jul 1st 2023 at 9:42:25 AM

Be kind.
dms3456 Since: Oct, 2021
#2902: Jul 1st 2023 at 6:27:51 PM

[up] You’re right. Because of the constant dissing against the audience again and again, scamming their voices actors and workers, and scamming others companies. No matter how many people actually liked them, 4kids, to many people, will always be one of the mistakes that the world has ever made.

SpongeBat1 We stan Clippy in this house from Quittersville, Failuretown, and Loserburg (Y2: Electric Boogaloo) Relationship Status: It's a god-awful small affair
We stan Clippy in this house
#2903: Jul 1st 2023 at 7:31:21 PM

[up]Ah yes, because when I think of mistakes the entire world has made, I think of mediocre anime dubs.

4Kids probably still qualifies but there's no need for overdramatic exaggeration.

Edited by SpongeBat1 on Jul 1st 2023 at 8:31:45 AM

Came for the tropes, stayed for the cleanup.
Paperfly Buzz from On The Wall Since: Jun, 2022
Buzz
#2904: Jul 2nd 2023 at 2:24:13 AM

Could Jared Leto be considered Condemned by History? I think he was a rather non-controversial actor pre Suicide Squad, but he gets a lot of flack nowadays for being creepy, and even when he is in well liked films, he is hardly considered a highlight

Image Pickin' Backlog
BocchiTheRock Since: Feb, 2023
#2905: Jul 2nd 2023 at 2:34:54 AM

[up][up] Honestly I think a 4kids entry should be more about how that style of anime editing isn't done anymore (that being an americanized, censored, edited version) in favor of making dubs that just try to faithfully adapt the material with little to no changes. Companies like DIC, Saban, etc also did these style of dubs, so they weren't 4kids exclusive, and the only 4kids dub I remember past the 00s was Glitter Force, which was notable solely because it was a 4kids style dub in 2015.

StarManatee Peter Igloo killed Ben Quadinaros? from The house in the ocean Since: Jun, 2023 Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
Peter Igloo killed Ben Quadinaros?
#2906: Jul 2nd 2023 at 3:32:21 AM

[up][up]I think that’s just more bad stuff being revealed over time rather than people retroactively going back and thinking the past stuff was bad

He/Him | Elsewhere (2017)
bowserbros No longer active. from Elsewhere Since: May, 2014
No longer active.
#2907: Jul 2nd 2023 at 9:59:22 AM

[up][up]Maybe, but it's 4kids that gets the most flack, to the point where their name is a byword for the entire process nowadays.

Be kind.
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#2908: Jul 2nd 2023 at 10:32:55 AM

Yeah, and just going for a nebulous "General Kiddie Censored dub" entry would be too general Bocchi.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#2909: Jul 2nd 2023 at 11:02:36 AM

The sentiment's already covered by Macekre being Discredited, anyway.

dms3456 Since: Oct, 2021
#2910: Jul 2nd 2023 at 2:00:31 PM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
bowserbros No longer active. from Elsewhere Since: May, 2014
No longer active.
#2911: Jul 2nd 2023 at 2:06:38 PM

Miramax and Weinstein were always contentious; Weinstein himself was long known as one of the biggest bullies in Hollywood even before the revelations of his numerous sex crimes. Neither he nor his company were outright beloved enough for their fall from grace to count.

Edited by bowserbros on Jul 2nd 2023 at 2:06:58 AM

Be kind.
SpongeBat1 We stan Clippy in this house from Quittersville, Failuretown, and Loserburg (Y2: Electric Boogaloo) Relationship Status: It's a god-awful small affair
We stan Clippy in this house
#2912: Jul 2nd 2023 at 2:53:52 PM

Besides, people still like the actual films and the actual filmmakers behind them like Gus Van Sant, Wes Craven, and Kevin Smith.

Came for the tropes, stayed for the cleanup.
TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#2913: Jul 3rd 2023 at 12:43:58 AM

Jared Leto still has roles that are considered good, such as Requiem for a Dream so I don’t think he counts.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Jul 3rd 2023 at 3:44:09 PM

Once Upon A Time.
alnair20aug93 🍊orange fursona🧡 from 🐾Furrypines 🇵🇭 (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
🍊orange fursona🧡
#2914: Jul 3rd 2023 at 1:52:17 AM

We have DarthWiki.Fallen Creator, for those mentioned directors, but that needs permission if they're allowed.

ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
SkylaNoivern Since: Sep, 2016
#2915: Jul 5th 2023 at 10:35:50 AM

I noticed that Scifimaster 92 added a few edits to Super Size Me to remove the links to Fat Head and a few justifying edits (The edit reason comes from YMMV.Fat Head). I couldn't see any discussion approving of either, so I thought I'd bring it up. I personally think that even if Fat Head has been accused of bias, that doesn't make including it any less credible.

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#2917: Jul 6th 2023 at 10:18:24 AM

[up][up] They did consult this thread before making the edits. Though I do have ROCEJ concerns with the Fat Head edit.

Edited by DDRMASTERM on Jul 6th 2023 at 11:19:46 AM

harryhenry It's either real or it's a dream Since: Jan, 2012
It's either real or it's a dream
#2918: Jul 6th 2023 at 9:25:08 PM

[up] Checking their previous comment, the way they downplay Spurlock seems questionable. What he did was a stunt, no one denied that, the issue was how he played himself off as more impartial and healthier than he really was, not mentioning his alcoholism or vegan lifestyle. On the progressive side, many critiqued how it seemed to downplay the manipulative actions of fast food companies in favour of making fun of fat/poor people for being fat/poor.

SkylaNoivern Since: Sep, 2016
#2919: Jul 7th 2023 at 12:22:54 PM

[up] Reading over Fat Head, a lot of the critiques about Super Size Me ignoring manipulative actions by fast food companies or blaming poor/fat people for their fast food problems were addressed in the former. I'm just concerned about the citing of one site critical of Fat Head to dismiss it being listed as a rebuttal, and the downplaying of the criticisms.

DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#2920: Jul 9th 2023 at 8:06:59 AM

[up] I know that Quinton Reviews did cite Fat Head as part of his How Documentaries Lie to You video demonstrating how Super Size Me was discredited. I did actually bother to watch the former and I didn't dig its overall political message, but in hindsight I think we may have been too permissive of allowing for cutting a reference to it.

Edited by DDRMASTERM on Jul 9th 2023 at 9:08:20 AM

SkylaNoivern Since: Sep, 2016
#2921: Jul 13th 2023 at 1:19:25 PM

Its been a few days and there hasn't been any response from Scifimaster. Should we add Fat Head as a rebuttal back to the entry regardless of its politics?

We could probably add that Super Size Me had progressive critics of it as well.

Edited by SkylaNoivern on Jul 13th 2023 at 9:20:55 AM

Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#2922: Jul 14th 2023 at 8:22:56 AM

To get back at an earlier dispute, I agree that Oreimo is not quite CBH, but I think the little-sister genre is. Here's my attempt at an entry:

  • The "little sister" (imouto) genre was popularised in Japan by Oreimo, which was liked for its mix of Incest Subtext, family drama and observations of otaku culture. A lot of imitators followed, many with little new to offer, culminating in the disastrous production of My Sister, My Writer. Even Oreimo's ending showed a problem for the genre as a whole: it made the incest explicit, which alienated the audience that didn't want too much focus on it, but in a chaste and temporary way, that alienated anyone who wanted it to go all the way. The genre floundered because it could not appeal to both sides at once. Imouto shows are still being made, but as a type of pornography with explicit incest that are not aiming for any mainstream audience.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
SkylaNoivern Since: Sep, 2016
#2923: Jul 14th 2023 at 8:35:26 AM

I readded Fat Head to the Super Size Me example and sent Scifimaster a notifier. Politics aside, I feel it's still worthy to point out that it exists as being a rebuttal to the latter film.

Scifimaster92 from Manitoba, Canada Since: Oct, 2016
#2924: Jul 14th 2023 at 11:23:07 AM

Maybe I should explain my position here - it's not just the blatant bias and condescension that's the issue with Fat Head, it's also the equally blatant hypocrisy on display by Naughton (namely him accusing Spurlock of engaging in Manipulative Editing only to do it himself by omitting key bits of information) and the fact that he generally comes across as being even less trustworthy than Spurlock, while the film itself comes across as more of a hit piece than an actual rebuttal. While the flaws in Super Size Me could be understood as being the result of Spurlock's relative inexperience as a filmmaker at the time rather than outright malicious intent, the same cannot be said for Fat Head, which was clearly produced in bad faith.

Edited by Scifimaster92 on Jul 14th 2023 at 2:00:34 PM

DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#2925: Jul 14th 2023 at 1:33:33 PM

[up] That may be true, but if Fat Head still played a role in the turnaround of opinion on the film, then the motives of the person behind each movie don’t really matter. At best, it might be worthy of a note if you can back up your claims. If you do, please do run the hypothetical note by this thread, as it’s very easy to run afowl of Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement with accusations of good or bad faith.

Edited by DDRMASTERM on Jul 14th 2023 at 2:36:22 AM


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