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RebelFalcon It's time for a Revolution from Hell Relationship Status: Mu
It's time for a Revolution
Jun 30th 2020 at 3:57:32 AM

He also considers himself and Chaldea to be morally in the right with destroying the Lostbelts as it's a matter of survival.
Well that's a Red Flag if I've ever seen one.
  • For one thing, is it even really a matter of survival at this point? Seem's pretty clear that the current situation is a massive Morton's Fork for us. Either we do nothing and the Foreign God descends, or we stop them but put down the remaining Lostbelts in the process. Either way doesn't change the fact Proper Human History is gone. Not helped by the Man from Chaldea and Wodime both confirming so.
  • For another, there's the fact he claims we are morally in the right since it's survival, except from the perception of the people of the Lostbelts, we're the invaders trying to end their worlds and commit genocide to their species. It's why even otherwise good people like Atalante [Alter] are so willing to turn on us, because from their perspective we're the ones committing sins. Yet Holmes still says we are morally in the right rather than say its a case of Gray-and-Grey Morality. It almost seems like Moral Myopia really.
  • Then there's how he doesn't even mention Ritsuka while talking to Helena. It seems more and more likely that Holmes is set up to be another Kiritsugu, someone willing to do horrid things under the rationale of the ends justify the means. Hell, were it not for how shady he is, I'd suspect Holmes was an agent of the Counter Force in some manner. Except even other Counter Guardians actually have standards they don't cross and don't try to dress it up like they're morally in the right. Just look at EMIYA, Sakamoto, or Kiritsugu. None of them act like they're doing the "right thing" when they commit unsavory acts, they just have no choice but to do it and lament the tragedy of it all.
Yeah, at this point it seems like we're in for a bout of Role-Reversal. Namely, Holmes will try to do something For The Greater Good and we'll fight to stop him. Possibly we'll come across a Lostbelt that could be an asset against the Foreign God meaning we could postpone its pruning, only for Holmes to try and push forward with pruning it or try and backstab them as soon as he feels its no longer convenient.

I'm a Falcon, not Faction. Like Shun from ARC-V. My Servants.
Nouct Probably overthinking this post from Studying abroad Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Probably overthinking this post
Jun 30th 2020 at 4:00:06 AM

My current theory is that Holmes may have good intentions, but the circumstances of his summoning and/or whatever summoned him/the entity mixed with him means they can't be fully aligned with Chaldea.

Edited by Nouct on Jun 30th 2020 at 4:00:22 AM

"This is tremendous content, where's my phone"
TitanJump Beast VIII from the Grand Grail Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Beast VIII
Jun 30th 2020 at 4:29:36 AM

What if Holmes is a reverse-Mash?

And is actually Marisbury Animusphere, using Holmes as a vessel?

Edited by TitanJump on Jun 30th 2020 at 1:31:18 PM

Madness: an author's most magnificent muse and house maid.
asterism Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
Jun 30th 2020 at 4:35:18 AM

sigurd interlude gave me happy feelings

Weight of the World - Prelude
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
Jun 30th 2020 at 4:43:25 AM

I have to roll my eyes at people thinking they're "onto Holmes" after the game spoon-feeds them "hints" about how shady he is. For me it just seems like an obvious misdirection, like with "Roman is actually evil" in part 1.

Hilariously, it was Holmes who planted that idea in our heads.

But yea, Holmes is shady as fuck but there's no reason as of right now to suspect he'll turn on Chaldea. There might be a scenario later that puts us against each other, but y'all at grasping at straws right now.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TPPR10 The Smug Returns from Out of Nowhere Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
The Smug Returns
Jun 30th 2020 at 4:54:35 AM

Okay, to throw my hat into this: Holmes is working for something shady, but he himself is not aware of it himself. Or at least he is sort of aware of it, but he does not have enough info to just say what he is doing. I want to believe that he is saying the truth when he says Helena that he has no idea who summoned him and Holmes teds to not to give out baseless speculations. The only thing he can do is assume he is doing the right thing and hope that he is not wrong unless something comes up that contradicts his speculation.

Of course the question is WHO summoned him in the first place? Foreign God? It could make sense in Part 2, but I really can't see why he would be around after that. The Foreign Priestess can destroy the Trees of Emptiness if they so choose, so just getting rid off the extra Lostbelts really makes no sense. The Counter Force? Maybe makes more sense but what exactly makes him so shady in that situation I don't know unless the World has it out for us.

Now with a smugness slider
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
Jun 30th 2020 at 5:04:01 AM

We are technically commit mass genocide across the world. That does sound like the Counter force would intervene at some point.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HailMuffins Professional Wanker from Ceará, Brazil Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Professional Wanker
Jun 30th 2020 at 5:05:20 AM

But we were mass genocied first, and the CF keeps throwing things to help us, so that does not compute.

Good artists borrow; great artists steal; the best artists murder.
deludedmusings Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Jun 30th 2020 at 5:05:34 AM

Hmm, my only real though is that it's probably not as obvious and simple as it currently appears. I'd honestly be kind of disappointed if it is.

Holding a grudge is allowing someone to live inside your head rent free.
TPPR10 The Smug Returns from Out of Nowhere Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
The Smug Returns
Jun 30th 2020 at 5:07:59 AM

[up][up] That's the thing, right: If getting rid of the Lostbelts was a bad thing, why are there Servants being summoned to get rid of them?

Now with a smugness slider
deludedmusings Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Jun 30th 2020 at 5:14:19 AM

Right, the World itself is still fighting.

I do think Rebel is right and Holmes saying we are morally right is a red flag.

Edited by deludedmusings on Jun 30th 2020 at 10:22:37 PM

Holding a grudge is allowing someone to live inside your head rent free.
Jun 30th 2020 at 5:16:34 AM

[up][up] Reminder that the Counter Force isn’t exactly a paragon of good. As Emiya learned the hard way. It’s trying to protect humanity, specifically it’s humanity by any means necessary

TPPR10 The Smug Returns from Out of Nowhere Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
The Smug Returns
Jun 30th 2020 at 5:22:58 AM

[up] Yes, but apparently us getting rid of Lostbelts is seen as a good thing according to it. So it isn't working against us, as Yakuza thinks it should be doing. Unless CF is really bad at giving mission statements, but after like QIN, you think it would directly step in.

While we're at it, here's something that Skadi said:

"That is exactly what is so frightening. You walked a razor's edge to accomplish the impossible, without even making an ally of the Counter Force."

I feel like that could go against the idea that Holmes is a Counter Guardian since surely she would have noticed something like that, right? Surtr noticed something being wrong with Holmes, so she herself would have caught onto something.

Edited by TPPR10 on Jun 30th 2020 at 3:23:11 PM

Now with a smugness slider
theLibrarian That all you got? from his own little world
That all you got?
Jun 30th 2020 at 5:25:28 AM

Yeah, the entire reason the Lostbelts are what they are is that they’re historical dead ends where humanity can no longer progress. None of them had any chance of really being the new Proper Human History.

That is the face of a man who just ate a kitten. Raw.
Jun 30th 2020 at 5:29:58 AM

I mean they can get forced to advance again but only with outside intervention.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
Jun 30th 2020 at 5:38:01 AM

There's something darkly hilarious about how humanity becoming furries is a historical dead end.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HailMuffins Professional Wanker from Ceará, Brazil Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Professional Wanker
Jun 30th 2020 at 5:42:13 AM

It's what they deserve.

Love how we keep calling Yakuzu "Yakuza", I keep imagining him wearing a gaudy suit and carrying a katana around.

Good artists borrow; great artists steal; the best artists murder.
Orihime00sama Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Jun 30th 2020 at 5:53:54 AM

Well, does he scream "Kiryu-chaaaan" and/or sing Baka Mitai in his spare time?

RainehDaze Umu from Scotland Relationship Status: Mu
Umu
Jun 30th 2020 at 6:15:34 AM

I mean, it's dark, but destroying the Lostbelts is the right thing because they're by definition doomed. It's just hurrying up the inevitable to try and get a better solution.

Edited by RainehDaze on Jun 30th 2020 at 2:16:22 PM

Jun 30th 2020 at 6:18:21 AM

I mean we could just fix the issues plaguing them. Like near the end of LB 2 where without Sutr being a giant drain to Skadi she could actually get the lostbelt to move forward again

RainehDaze Umu from Scotland Relationship Status: Mu
Umu
Jun 30th 2020 at 6:22:24 AM

The issue plaguing them is that they're doomed and it's a dead end. "Fixing" whatever issue is most apparent won't help. Particularly as the problems get more fundamental.

Anyway, there's more than enough reason by LB 5.2 to conclude that we are, in fact, on the right side.

Comun Translation Trainwreck Enthusiast from Lostbelt 7 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Jun 30th 2020 at 6:23:59 AM

[up][up]And the Russian Lostbelt ruled by Anastasia, China and India after their rulers got their character development, or how things would turn out if Kirsch's plan worked out. All Crypters are, in theory, working to properly undoom their worlds. Sadly, Kadoc and Kirsch were the only ones doing it in practice.

Edited by Comun on Jun 30th 2020 at 9:24:22 AM

TitanJump Beast VIII from the Grand Grail Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Beast VIII
Jun 30th 2020 at 6:25:41 AM

Could the "Trees of Emptiness" be used as a way to undo the Bleaching by recreating PHH within one, using the Throne's records, and have it "branch off" where the Bleaching was supposed to occur in the first place, making it an alternate history without a Dead End ahead of it or the world being Bleached at all?

And if the Alien God is gone, would a Tree of Emptiness actually be a threat without that entity?

And once that Tree has spread over the world and replaced the Bleached one, wouldn't the situation be solved then?

Besides the giant world-tree that now occupies it, of course.

Of course, I suspect there would be problems even with this potential solution, but would they be worse than the current situation, I ask?

...

[down] The World?

Hence why it's sending in Servants from the PHH-timeline in order to assist us in pruning these doomed Lostbelts?

Edited by TitanJump on Jun 30th 2020 at 3:29:19 PM

Madness: an author's most magnificent muse and house maid.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
Jun 30th 2020 at 6:27:31 AM

Who actually decides that Lostbelts are lost cause?

Come and get your burgers!
Jun 30th 2020 at 6:29:35 AM

[up]X4 They’re a dead end because of the factors in the Lostbelt lead them to a dead end with only the parts of the Lostbelt within them, they can’t do anything, with stuff from the outside influencing them then the Lostbelt can be saved..... if we ever decided to quite commuting genocide. Hell its not even that they’re doomed it’s just they aren’t moving forward, and progress overrides actual quality in the Counter Force’s eyes.


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