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Ambar has made arguments about why he thinks Ultimate Marvel is crap in the past. This isn't the only post he's made on the subject. And I don't think someone who has dismissed someone who criticized Ultimate Marvel as Just a Kid — never mind that they are not a kid anymore — is in any position to be claiming that someone else lacks strong arguments.
edited 24th Jan '18 7:34:04 PM by M84
I don't like Ultimates, but I will agree that it does feel cinematic. So mission accomplished on that front.
Overall, I read all of Ultimates and part of Ultimates 2, the first 80 or so issues of Ultimate X-Men, and the entirety of Ultimate Spider-Man before Ultimatum.
Ultimate Spidey was good though! Anyone wanna talk about that? I like that it showed just how hard it would be to keep a secret identity under wraps. SHIELD finds out almost immediately just by putting the pieces together, Osborn and Octavius are smart enough to put two and two together because their company owned the mutated spider, etc. Even Kong Harlan figured it out and just sat on that knowledge for over a hundred issues because he wanted to be a decent friend.
I dropped it when Peter died but it's pretty much Bendis' crowning achievement and among the best comics of the Noughts.
Made a sweet game too.
@slimcoder according to Millar, he was trying to lampoon the war on terror and western foreign policy as a whole. He's stated in interviews that he was surprised when people told him Ultimate Steve motivated them to enlist.
Yeah, I liked Ultimate Spidey too.
The rest of the Ultimate Marvel lineup was "Meh" at best.
If he really was trying to lampoon it, he didn't do a very good job of it.
edited 24th Jan '18 7:38:41 PM by M84
If anything, what sorta started to wear on me was how Nick Fury and the Ultimates kept getting involved in Peter's life. Granted, it would strain credibility in the more "realistic" Ultimate U for Fury to not be keeping tabs on Peter and his enemies all the time, especially with how watchdoggy and invasive of privacy Ultimate SHIELD was, but it was sorta like, "Geez, do we really need Nick Fury to get involved every time a Goblin shows up? Can Peter not find a way to beat the Sinister Six himself?"
One thing that stood out about Ultimate Doc Ock is that he's not the cackling, Saturday-morning egomaniac that Slott writes him as, but he still manages to be a demented piece of work while being relatively low-key.
Man did Peter went out like a boss in the end.
Bendis really shouldn't have brought him back, it was better for him to stay dead.
I liked how he wanted to give up super-villainy & wanted to go back to science to do some actual real good.
Shame he accidentally pissed off Norman.
edited 24th Jan '18 7:44:00 PM by slimcoder
Yeah it goes without saying that Ultimate Spider-Man is the legitimately good thing that comes out of the Ultimate line. It modernizes the character without making him a jackass, it plays with the tropes found in contemporary Spider-Man works creating interesting stories through said subversions and it does a good job updating some of his villains.
Like for example Kingpin. I like the fact that he is a corrupt conglomerate owner who uses Spider-Manís popularity to sell merchandise to make extra buck while still being a crime lord.
The only two things I donít like about the series are Green Goblin and Deadpools portrayal. In the case of the latter its pretty obvious. But for the former I am just not a fan of Goblin Hulk that shoots fire. But I do like Norman Osbornís portrayal as being in complete control of his own actions as the Goblin instead of the usual split personality bs.
Ultimate Goblin looks too much like The Abomination. In a verse that had a version of The Abomination.
Ultimate Deadpool is basically Donald Pierce cosplaying as Deadpool.
Ya know I remember watching the Ultimate Avengers animated movies & thought they were pretty cool.
The animation & art was brutal.
Weren't the movies toned down compared to the comics?
Hmmmh lets see:
Hank was not a violent abuser, Hulk wasn't a cannibal, & Widow wasn't a traitor who murdered Hawkeye's family.
So yes they were toned down actually. Its like taking the setting, designs, & overall aesthetic with personalities more in line with the 616 canon.
edited 24th Jan '18 9:11:16 PM by slimcoder
Ultimate Spidey was definitely the best thing to come out of the line. Though if there was one thing to complain about, it was that as time went on, you could tell that Bendis started to forget his own plot points — like how Aunt May was supposedly dating the Jackal? Or MJ was the Demon Goblin? Or Flash's crush on Gwen being dropped (despite her coming back later), etc., etc.
Bendis' ability to remember continuity has always been shaky. It's plagued a number of his other books (see: Richard Fisk, stammering weakling during his Daredevil run).
edited 24th Jan '18 9:29:01 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
See, but that was more of a retcon on Bendis's part (another thing his is really bad about), as he had never written the character before and was just ignoring the work of previous writers.
Im talking about forgetting plot points that he himself established in a book that he himself wrote, and had at that point been writing for more than 10 years. That's just sloppy.
edited 24th Jan '18 9:34:09 PM by Eldritcho
I know that. I'm just suggesting that Bendis' tendency to retcon other people's work and his inability to remember his own plot points are likely connected—he's got a shaky grasp on and concern for continuity in general.
Bendis strikes me as someone who prioritizes the story he wants to tell over everything else, including previous characterization and plot points.
Which isn't exactly the best fit for a comics writer.
edited 24th Jan '18 11:18:24 PM by M84
Well considering apparently the new Ultimate universe has Ultimate Ironheart instead of Ultimate Iron"MAN" as a member of the Ultimates yes he really does whatever the fuck he wants.
Even then the Maker already revived a couple of the Ultimates before the universe's revival.
Hopefully in whatever title he's working on for DC its in his own little universe far away from everyone else....... after he writes that Action Comics short for issue 1,000.
edited 24th Jan '18 11:50:00 PM by slimcoder
Honestly, while it used to be pretty important for me, I have grown to care less and less for continuity over the years.
The mainstream Marvel/DC universes are so vast, with hundreds/thousands of series and writers that it is impossible to keep an exact track of consistency.
I mostly enjoy and judge the stories/runs for what they are independently now.
As for Misaimed Fandom: Sorry, but that happens to the best of works. Even blatant Anti-War films like Full Metal Jacket are inspirations for certain kinds of people to join the military.
edited 25th Jan '18 1:53:17 PM by Forenperser
Anybody here noticed the way Ultimate Thor was basically Jesus as a Superhero? Seriously, the scene where he is praying to Odin at the climax of Grand Theft America feels like something you might read during the Agony in the Garden or the Crucifixion.
Also, I kinda agree with the previous posts about how while even though Ultimate Cap was more realistic than his Mary Sue 616 self, they went way over the top, almost to the point of parody.
And yeah, I used to consider 616 Captain America an unbearable Marty Stu with his preachy attitude and his stupid costume (those silly wings on his head)... but I must say MCU Cap won me completely over. Yes, you read that right, Chris Evans made me a freaking Cap fanboy (kinda helps they actually gave him a costume that was both practical and not goofy).
edited 25th Jan '18 5:03:36 PM by zsax
Its a bit of a close minded opinion to say 616 is an unbearable Mary Sue when you actually read his portrayal in early Avengers run with his want for revenge for Baron Zemo, guilt over causing the death of his partner Bucky (which was why he was adament not to allow Rick Jones to take up the identity) and his hard time adjusting to modern society which extends to majority of the Silver Age Captain America comics (which features a lot of moments where the character question why he takes up the identity of Captain America as well as the government he fights for). Hell the Grunewald run of the character in the 80s is a pretty appropriate citation for giving people a good idea of the character being far more complex; sure itís preachy but it does a good job showcasing how the character is more than just a flag waving goody two shoes. But you did say you used to think that way before the movies, so if you havenít already check out some old school Captain America comics that I mentioned. Also the show Earthís Mightiest Heroes since it gave the best portrayal of the character in an animated medium.
Now on the Thor thing, Thor has often been Hijacked by Jesus since his creation.
edited 25th Jan '18 6:06:59 PM by BigK1337
The movies actually compelled me to read Ed Brubaker's run (which was a 4.5 out of 5 stars for me, definitely recomended).
As for Thor and Jesus, I feel he shares the same problem with Movie Superman (I have sent them you, my only son). Yeah... real subtle right there, guys. Some writers just love making him a Messianic figure.
Loki also seems to take some aspects of Lucifer. Having read a few about Myth Loki, I kinda like he was actually kinda... complex, much like a Fairy (not the kid friendly kind).
Yeah that was actually the whole point, as in the Stan Lee/Jack Kirby comics Loki was revered to as the ďGod of EvilĒ and was given a helment with devil like horns. Iím just surprised they didnít went with the interpretation of Loki being Odinís brother.
I blane Richard Donner for making that subtext popular, as originally Supes orgin never really have any Christian subtext to his orgin. Judism, perhaps, given original the authorsí religious alignment; but not Christian. Now its popular for godlike superheroes to have such Jesus themes whether they work or not. Hell, the only time I believe it works was in Disneyís Hercules; and thatís only, because, the Greek pantheon are some of the most unlikable characters in mythology.
edited 25th Jan '18 6:56:05 PM by BigK1337
Maybe Mary Sue isn't the exact right term for 616-Cap most of the time, but the amount of Character Shilling he constantly gets is still pretty hard to bear sometimes.
One of the best examples of recent times would be Infinity. I mean, for all his fighting prowess and experience, he is still a human. And he was fighting alongside cosmic powerhouses like Gladiator, Ronan, Annihilus etc, who are all MUCH older and MUCH more experienced in intergalactic warfare than he is, and yet still HE and his leadership are the one deciding factor in this battle?
Pretty hard to swallow. Plus, like I said, Captain Patriotic in general is kind of a pet peeve trope for me. I think it it incredibly outdated, and combined with Steves paragon status way too preachy and melodramatic. In comparison to the likes of Superman, I also never really understood why he of all people became such a symbol.
That is why I liked Ultimate Cap. He isn't this shining, morally pure figure from the beginning, he starts out as a jingoistic asshole and gradually grows into becoming a better man and true hero (who still keeps some of his flaws) over the years. His status feels more 'earned' imO.
Also yeah, I gotta admit that Chris Evans does a really fine job. Hated the first Cap movie, but the other two are really great. Also liked the costume in the second, sad that they didn't stick with it.
Regarding the Character Shilling of Captain America: its actually well earned in the 616 comics. Especially when among the ranks with guys like Ronan, Annihilus and Gladiator who may have been involved in many intergalactic campaigns, lets not forget that Steve had led (and sometimes won) in some of the more major battles (Kree Skrull Wars, Operation Galactic Storm, the many times the Avengers fought Thanos). Plus Steve was the leaser in some great cosmic battles involving Grandmaster, Korvac and Kang the Conqueror. So it really isnít too far fetch to see him coming out victor in the conflict as in the past he have experience with dealing with cosmic powerhouses due to his 70+ history in comics.
And this is not even mentioning how in the classic comics his character development in coming to terms of waking up in a world he barely recognize and all the shadier things he have to face which leads him to question if the world really needs an outdated hero than Captain America.
Basically what I am saying is: Captain America has a lot of character in the classic comics and earned all the praises considering the shit he have done in the Avengers.
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