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Thr pboelm is that it reduce whatever point to the fight into a emocional lens that destroy whatever debate was in the first point, in the end cap is prove right by how much the acord restringe Tony and he is reduce to "MY PARENT ARE DEAAAAAAAD!!!"
Maybe but so far we still have to see Ted cruz bloking Bernie lighiting or Hilary and trumpo final fight at the top of a super wall that shoot laser...
rollin' on dubs
A lot of the plot could be avoided by having:
- Wanda sent with Black Panther to Wakanda, away from Hydra and she could focus her powers with the Vision at her side.
- Have Black Panther be the "XO" to Stick-up-the-butt Ross. As much as he is trusted, he's out of his depth.
- Ross could have had Cap capture Bucky, for all they knew, there could have been more like him. They got lucky, Zemo shot the others. He could have just let them loose for the Avengers to try and catch as a Screw You! to Ross and the UN.
- Falcon should have spoken up: "Steve, without Ross's help, Bucky isn't going to get the help he needs. Either we bring him in or the UN or Black Panther puts Bucky on a slab".
- Cap, Stark and The Vision should have told Ross that: A) Bucky is Brainwashed and Crazy, B) Hydra is still out there so who knows what other crap they have, getting Bucky could de-Hydra him and reverse engineer Hydra tech. and C) Bucky doesn't just go off and do stuff, who was pulling his strings and what else does he have?
Yeah, Ross is not going to be much help when the Infinity War happens.
edited 12th May '16 1:51:38 AM by TairaMai
I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
rollin' on dubs
That's like 10 points off the Mary Sue scale right there. He checks himself, like Black Panther did when he didn't kill Zemo. The Russo brothers did good on that one...Zack Synder take note!
I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....![]()
after the fight and after all the damage is done, he outright said that he didnt tell him not for protect Tony but for protecting himself
"Cap, Stark and The Vision should have told Ross that: A) Bucky is Brain Washed And Crazy, B) Hydra is still out there so who knows what other crap they have, getting Bucky could de-Hydra him and reverse engineer Hydra tech. and C) Bucky doesn't just go off and do stuff, who was pulling his strings and what else does he have? "
And what tell that Bucky isn still Brainwashed? or that Hydran didnt sent him to bomb the UN?the need to capture Bucky or kill him, in this case is Steve sense what tip him off
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"In fact even Cap wasn't sure Bucky wasn't brainwashed again or worse. That's why he went to Bucharest. If Bucky was under Hydra's control again he was the only one that had a slight chance to try and bring him in without Bucky trying to kill him. And that was his reasoning even before he knew there was an order to shoot Bucky on sight.
But while I agree it's not very fair to Bucky to shoot him on sight if he was brainwashed the only other option was sending the Avengers to deal with him. And after Lagos I see why the UN wouldn't want to do that. And sending Steve was never an option for them since he has emotional ties with their suspect. Cap can do what needs to be done to subdue Bucky if the situation arises but that doesn't mean everyone will trust him to put his feelings for his best friend and his last tie to his past aside.
edited 12th May '16 2:18:00 AM by Majinangelo
Regarding Zemo's family recording
I only caught that it was a recording when he deleted it, just before he started talking to Panther. Then I was like, "He's been listening to a recording? Why was he listening to - OH MY GOD."
His Sokovian accent stood out more to me, so the recording clicked for me right before he explained his motive. Which is exactly when it's supposed to, so it worked.
Not like this. In the comics, that was the biggest problem: Cap's side didn't even have a victory condition. It was not physically possible for him to win at any point in the conflict, because the only thing they were fighting about was a United States law. The Anti-Regs were just trying to punch enough Pro-Reg heroes that somehow the law would stop existing. Politics don't work that way.
The Accords are the same. If all they were fighting about were the Accords then Cap's side would have a hopeless fight because no matter how many times he hits Iron Man in the face, the Accords aren't going anywhere. He can win the airport battle as many times as he wants but the law is still the law. Unless one is willing to start overthrowing governments or, in this case, working towards world domination, you can't defeat democracy by hitting it really hard.
What I find interesting about that scene is that, much like how most of his actions throughout the film have been more about Bucky specifically than the ideologies, Cap surrendering the shield was about Howard. He had every intention of taking it with him while Stark was shouting at him; he only stops, considers for a moment, then drops it when Stark says, "My dad made that shield!"
Larger concepts like deserving and worthiness don't really move him much, but as he says: he believes in individuals. He left the shield for Howard, not because he doesn't feel he's worthy to be Captain America or some other grandiose concept like that.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.When he listened to it the second time I realised that it wasn't a recent one, but the fact that he just hung it up the first time and didn't say goodbye or reply to what came out of the phone instantly twigged me in to it being an answerphone message, I just didn't get how old it was.
Then again people often don't observe common courtesy in films so I can imagine someone who watches lots wouldn't find it as odd as I did.
For a second when he listened to it the second time I thought it might be a flashback, but then I realised that it wasn't and that that meant the recording wasn't his wife that was home while he was away on his anti-avengers mission, it was him listening to an old message that had sentimental value, presumably because his wife and child were dead.
edited 12th May '16 9:05:09 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran![]()
he believes in individuals because he believes in the universal law of autonomy. This is what he has fought for since we first laid eyes upon him though not exactly like where it's currently at. The entire belief developed, having its own acc.
You give a character something they want or believe and make an entire story out of it. I think Captain America is the prime example for film.
edited 12th May '16 9:14:03 AM by FictionWriterKing
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They had things they wanted to do, but didn't have a way to actually prevail in the conflict itself. Tony's win condition was,
- Get superheroes to sign the Registration Act.
- Put illegal vigilantes in prison with the rest of the criminals.
- Peace is restored, people feel secure, faith in superheroes exists again.
- Registration Act results in new golden age of prosperity.
Cap's was
- Do superhero stuff outside the law.
- Try not to get arrested.
- ???
- Registration Act is repealed somehow.
Consequentially, every time violence broke out between the two sides, it only helped the Pro-Reg side by giving the people more reason to be afraid of unregistered superheroes - and when Anti-Regs took losses, it meant more because their casualties were put in prison while Pro-Reg casualties were put right back into service as soon as they could fight again.
That's the entire reason why Cap surrendered: because his entire side was counterproductive. Trying to punch democracy until it did what he wanted was a losing battle that was only serving to turn the people more and more against him. He still believed in his ideology, but his side of the war was a lost cause from the beginning.
By framing it about Bucky, the movie did a better job of creating an actual conflict separate from the law that gave both sides something to work towards. For Tony, it's
- Arrest Bucky and the people protecting him.
- They all sign the Accords or go to jail.
- The Avengers protect the world.
- The world is safe.
For Cap, it's
- Protect Bucky from the people pursuing him.
- Stop Zemo from releasing all the Winter Soldiers.
- Go into hiding with the rest of my men and pop out when the world needs defending.
- The world is safe. The Accords can go do whatever it's going to do, I don't care.
When the conflict is about Bucky being arrested or protected, it is physically possible for Cap to win. It's also possible for Tony to win. Their fight has substance, rather than an overbearing sense of inevitability.
edited 12th May '16 9:19:21 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Interestingly while there is no clear winner in this conflict (in fact they all loose, because they all wanted to stay together above everything else) if I had to pick one, I would say Team Cap. I mean, yeah, they are now fugitives, but they are still whole, they still can trust each other at least and you can bet that as soon as the Earth is in danger again, nobody will care if they signed the accords or not.
Also, everyone who picked Cap stayed in his side while Tony lost two fighters (not that BP was ever on his side to begin with).
edited 12th May '16 9:53:14 AM by Swanpride
I would agree that Team Cap "won" as much of the conflict as can be considered winning. Bucky is free and clear. Both Stark and T'Challa know that Bucky isn't responsible for the U.N. bombing, one of whom is the leader of a U.N. member state responsible for the Sokovia Accords and can present the case for Bucky in front of the rest. Even if Ross wants to be obstinate about it, Stark has clearly established to him that he has no actual power over the Avengers.
And ultimately, that's what the fight was about. Bucky, not the Accords. The Accords are still there because they're the new status quo, not the conflict; if they hadn't been there, the infighting probably still would have happened.
With both the leader of the Avengers and the monarch of a sovereign nation able to testify to his innocence, Cap won the Bucky fight. Nobody won the Accords fight because there isn't really an Accords fight.
Of course, Cap's still a wanted criminal for all the assaulting of law enforcement officials he did over the course of proving Bucky's innocence. "Now you have to go back to jail for breaking out in the first place! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'm serious."
edited 12th May '16 10:13:27 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I like to read articles from Legal Geeks and listen to their Podcast and thought this article was particularly relevant (especially for you Tobias
)- why the Sokovia Accords are unconstitutional
.
Basically, the United States is a member of the U.N. and can of course enter into treaties but it can't enter into/enforce treaty terms that violate the Constitution- which would be the case for stuff like enlisting U.S. citizens and imprisoning U.S. citizens (and others) without trials in secret prisons.
It's possible that the U.S. Constitution is different in the MCU than in reality (like maybe there was the "Peggy Carter Amendment" that set terms of how SHIELD and the U.N. interacted with the Constitution) but assuming it is the same, Ellis had no business signing the Accords and Ross, Stark, and Rhodes have no business enforcing them.
Edit- Incidentally, the treatment of Wanda would probably be wrong, despite her not being a U.S. citizen. Like Rasul v. Bush
would probably apply if she were no more than a foreign national/terrorist, but since she's been in the United States on the Avengers- I would guess through Tony's help, which makes him a hypocrite to threaten her- she probably has some kind of official refugee status.
edited 12th May '16 10:28:23 AM by Hodor2
I assume that She-Hulk hasn't shown up because she's been feverishly lawyering to allow all this superhero action to happen.
Forever liveblogging the Avengers![]()
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That article is weird, because 1) we never actually read the entire Sokovia accords, only a small bit of it and 2) no part of that bit refers to any "conscription." This isn't like the Registration Act in the comics, where all superheroes had to register. The Act was specifically made for the Avengers. Nobody was being conscripted because everybody was already part of an army, that army just happened not to have any oversight.
edited 12th May '16 10:32:01 AM by alliterator
Yeah, I do wonder about that part. I think maybe the idea is that most of the members of the Avengers are American citizens and so there would be a problem with the U.N. conscripting them through its control of the Avengers under the Accords.
It's a bit of a weird situation in general what with Wilson and Rhodes being members of the armed forces as well as Avengers (although Rhodes always seems to be operating with official sanction).
edited 12th May '16 10:36:43 AM by Hodor2

Naturally the accords move in the background. Because, when it gets down to it, those are adults, they wouldn't come to blows over some silly politics. At worst some of them would retire and others would go in hiding, there is no reason to "discuss" the issue with blows. You need the emotional aspect to make that believable.
And, as I pointed out a while back, unlike The Winter Soldier this is NOT a political thriller but a revenge play.