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phantom1 Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#276: Jul 18th 2016 at 8:48:57 PM

That's true but generally both would have to have some views that aren't in line with how their religion is generally practiced since the Catholic Church is not very same gender married friendly either. But otherwise their views could be anywhere on the spectrum of Traditionalism versus more Liberal views.

TParadox Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: The captain of her heart
#277: Jul 18th 2016 at 9:09:13 PM

I feel that embracing one's orientation and choosing personal modesty in dress aren't exclusive.

She's an engineer, so I was picturing her usually wearing modified coveralls and slightly less flowy than usual scarves covering her hair and neck.

edited 18th Jul '16 9:11:01 PM by TParadox

Fresh-eyed movie blog
hellomoto Since: Sep, 2015
#278: Jul 19th 2016 at 12:16:50 AM

[up] I can go on for ages about how dressing 'sexy' is not the be-all and end-all of sexual freedom. If anything, sexual freedom also means having the freedom to NOT dress 'sexy' for any reason (including 'I just felt like wearing this today').

edited 19th Jul '16 12:22:05 AM by hellomoto

nekomoon14 from Oakland, CA Since: Oct, 2010
#279: Jul 19th 2016 at 10:48:54 AM

Iv never seen or read anything with a Muslim and/or West Asian character who is lesbian so this would be pretty groundbreaking

Level 3 Social Justice Necromancer. Chaotic Good.
phantom1 Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#281: Jul 21st 2016 at 5:36:50 AM

@T Para: Yeah, I don't see why a Muslim lesbian wouldn't be able to wear a hijab. Just because she's comfortable with her orientation doesn't automatically translate to being liberal about the Islamic dress code. I mean, I'm sure plenty of Muslim LGBT people don't wear hijab (points at self) but I'm sure there are also Muslim LGBT women who do.

The one issue I could see is that, while Muslim men can marry Christian, Jewish, or Muslim women, women can only marry Muslim men. At least, that's what I was always taught. Though, your character could either be liberal about this aspect or assume that she can follow the rule for men since she's marrying a woman, not a man. But I dunno. (shrug)

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
war877 Grr... <3 from Untamed Wilds Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Grr... <3
#282: Jul 21st 2016 at 6:19:19 AM

Muslim women only being allowed to marry muslim men is an inherently sexist policy if the same restriction does not apply to men. It would be indefensible in the modern world.

phantom1 Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#283: Jul 21st 2016 at 10:14:25 AM

Yeah I think sometimes the guy converts if he has a different religion, I know my brother does and is thus technically a non-practicing Muslim. I don't know if the same would hold since she's marrying a woman

nekomoon14 from Oakland, CA Since: Oct, 2010
#284: Jul 21st 2016 at 11:43:20 AM

"Indefensible in the modern world" reeks of islamophobia in this context; the bible has the same rule - Jewish/Christian men can marry out but women cant bcuz men are supposed to be the leaders of their households and that wuld require those women to convert to other religions; an important question is where the story takes place bcuz that will determine how free she is to deviate from strict orthodoxy/orthopraxy

Level 3 Social Justice Necromancer. Chaotic Good.
phantom1 Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#285: Jul 21st 2016 at 12:00:43 PM

Yeah and interestingly with the Muslim one the man is the one with the pressure to convert. For better or for worse, I think that's the only difference.

shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#286: Jul 21st 2016 at 12:05:08 PM

[up] Probably because they still believe in the old tradition that only the man can raise the kid into a Muslim. Apparently the woman doesn't matter despite contribute to 50% of the family. Some fundamentalist Christian believe that too.

edited 21st Jul '16 12:06:19 PM by shatterstar

phantom1 Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#287: Jul 21st 2016 at 12:06:59 PM

Yes but I don't know if the woman has to convert or being pressured to convert is so much better.

Anyways check if it's the case with two wives T Para or if there aren't any strict rules and they can make their own.

edited 21st Jul '16 12:08:30 PM by phantom1

war877 Grr... <3 from Untamed Wilds Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Grr... <3
#288: Jul 21st 2016 at 12:19:06 PM

[up][up][up][up]It's indefensible in the modern world if any religion does that. What are you trying to say?

TParadox Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: The captain of her heart
#289: Jul 21st 2016 at 5:42:59 PM

There's probably some modern commentaries applying Koranic principles to same-sex partnerships.

Fresh-eyed movie blog
phantom1 Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#290: Jul 21st 2016 at 5:49:56 PM

Yes check those, see what it says about marriage between women and conversion/marrying non-Muslims.

hellomoto Since: Sep, 2015
#291: Jul 21st 2016 at 5:53:42 PM

By the way, what is the reasoning behind wearing of the hijab?

nekomoon14 from Oakland, CA Since: Oct, 2010
#292: Jul 21st 2016 at 5:55:29 PM

If these women are interested in having children, the question of whether theyll be raised religiously might have to be explored in some way at some point

edited 21st Jul '16 5:57:37 PM by nekomoon14

Level 3 Social Justice Necromancer. Chaotic Good.
TParadox Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: The captain of her heart
#293: Jul 21st 2016 at 6:07:04 PM

The most common explanation I've seen that's no doubt biased says that hijab dress is meant to cover whatever's considered attractive to protect men from "burning with lust". There's similar dress code justifications in Mosaic Law and in the Pauline epistles.

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CrystalGlacia from at least we're not detroit (Living Relic)
#294: Jul 21st 2016 at 6:52:14 PM

(Yeah, I said I'd stay out of this thread waaay back, but this is something I can actually comment on.)

Anthony Bourdain did a special episode of No Reservations where he visited the country of a fan, and that fan was a Saudi woman. The woman wore a hijab, and she- an obviously liberal woman as you might guess -interpreted her hijab's purpose as 'protecting female beauty'. She implied that her hijab hides her hair from men not because her status as a woman makes her accountable for men's behavior, but because they are unworthy of seeing her beauty. She's supposed to save her beauty for her husband. (But that's also, in a way, a slightly more poetic way of telling women that a part of their personal agency is always going to be controlled by men.)

A lesbian Muslim woman could go with this interpretation, and stretch it by wearing her hijab at all times, around everyone except her lover and close family.

edited 22nd Jul '16 4:44:54 AM by CrystalGlacia

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth."
TParadox Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: The captain of her heart
#295: Jul 21st 2016 at 7:58:16 PM

Yeah, the healthier view is more along the line of "this is only for my spouse", but I was thinking of it from a perspective of being owned by the spouse than personal agency. That helps.

Fresh-eyed movie blog
hellomoto Since: Sep, 2015
#296: Jul 22nd 2016 at 4:17:47 AM

Could one think of it as the equivalent of not stripping for anyone except your lovers? By today's standards hair being lustful is a bit of a stretch, but still.

war877 Grr... <3 from Untamed Wilds Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Grr... <3
#297: Jul 22nd 2016 at 6:36:54 AM

I'd say no, because the policy does not swing both ways, wearing a hajib is objectifying women. It is done for a sexual reason. In this case, the opposite sexual reason as a person wearing a skimpy dress. Rather than trying to get a guy horny, it is trying to not get a guy horny.

Because that is the reason for the clothing, the wearing of the clothing implies that the female is a sex object.

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#298: Jul 22nd 2016 at 7:50:44 AM

The reasoning I always heard was that the hijab is meant to serve as a reminder that beauty (that hair is usually a large component of) ultimately holds no weight when being judged in the afterlife. Basically, the idea was to prevent vanity. Granted, this interpretation still has its problems, like assuming that women would naturally be more predisposed to vanity... then again, it's not like masculine beauty depends as much on hair as feminine beauty, so it may not actually be implying that, and that's why men may not have to wear hijab. But, yeah, my Sunday school was very adamant that the hijab was not meant as a way to prevent men from being lustful horndogs, it was for our sake.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
war877 Grr... <3 from Untamed Wilds Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Grr... <3
#299: Jul 22nd 2016 at 8:18:24 AM

Off topic

edited 22nd Jul '16 12:35:46 PM by war877

nekomoon14 from Oakland, CA Since: Oct, 2010
#300: Jul 22nd 2016 at 9:49:26 AM

But how does any of that opinion help our fellow creator? The question is about how one might go about creating a lesbian hijabi character not what we personally think about this and that; btw, wearing the hijab is supposed to be entirely voluntary anyway (outside of a few crappy places)

Level 3 Social Justice Necromancer. Chaotic Good.

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