General Indiana Jones Thread

Temple of Doom was also evident of Creator Breakdown, both Lucas and Spielberg were going through a divorce and used that movie to work through it. Seeing it as an Old Shame for letting their personal life seep through means all they can see is how their personal life affected the movie.

The main failing of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is that its' action set pieces were just not investing (in part due to the CG heavy rainforest chase) and the new characters ill defined. None of them BAD, not even Mutt, but their personalities and interests seemed to be tailored to the plot rather than being well developed characters. Mac's triple agent deal seemed to be more of a joke than a real plot twist.

We didn't even have any reason to feel sorry for Indy when Mac first showed he was a traitor. He's literally just introduced and then he's all "Sorry Jonesy, I love me some gold".

I don't dislike Mutt's character, but I dislike how the character was handled. I actually think his relationship with Indy would have worked out far better if they hadn't forced the 'by the way, he's your long lost father' angle in. That demanded far more emotional depth and development than what the movie had. It's not even the same as with Luke and Vader, where it's not like Vader and Luke are in the same side all along and can allow themselves a better reconnecting chemistry instead of a last second reconciliation.

I like Short Round too. I'd have disliked him if he had been an useless Tagalong Kid, but he wasn't, so he was okay. Now Willie in the other hand...

I will also admit Last Crusade, I wasn't crazy about it. Elsa and Indy don't have great chemistry, and the final twist about her loses all punch as a result. The film's weight rests squarely on Indy's relationship with his father, and while it works enough as to save the movie, it's still the least memorable one to me. Temple of Doom and Crystal Skull, when they are bad, are at least So Bad, It's Good, but Last Crusade mostly is a kind of lukewarm So Okay, It's Average. Even the villains are the least striking of the whole saga.

That being said, the Hitler gag was probably my favorite in all the movies.

edited 17th Mar '16 6:34:11 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

Last Crusade mostly works because it's an ensemble piece. You have comedic bits with Marcus and Sallah, and Sean Connery is damn good at playing off of Harrison Ford.

The villains, though...yeah, you've got a point. Hell, the main villain, Donovan, dies partway through the retrieval of the Grail and it's just so sudden and anti-climactic. Most of his character is "rich scumbag", he has nothing to really stand out other than his incredibly brutal death. He doesn't have the yin-yang dynamic like Rene Belloq, and he doesn't have a large presence and hammy acting like Mola Ram. Hell, Irena Spalko was a better villain than Donovan. She at least had sex appeal to make her stand out.

The chemistry between Elsa and Indy was far better than Willie and Indy. They way she played him was a good twist on the established love interests of previous films, she stepped right out of the 30's Femme Fatale archetype. Willie never got a chance to toughen up and instead was complaining the whole time, although she did handle the rope bridge sequence slightly better than previous stunts.

Donovan had a Karmic Death similar to Balloq in Raiders, but Indy and Balloq had a better defined history while Last Crusade had a much stronger dynamic between Indy and Jones Sr. You can feel the tension when Jones Sr. is shot, but it's not really on how big of a monster Donovan is.

Belloq was probably the best of the Indiana Jones villains, to be honest. He's a dark mirror into what Jones would be like if he did things purely for profit and power. Hell, the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles would've had some episodes going into their past before it was cancelled.

I'd call Last Crusade my favorite of the Indiana Jones movies easily, for what it's worth.

And I think it's kind of hard to blame audiences if they went in to Crystal Skull expecting another movie in the style of B-Adventure movies and were disappointed getting a B-Sci Fi Movie. Even if he was moved forward in to the 50s, Indiana Jones is so iconically connected with the Adventure Genre that to try to shift him into a Sci Fi story feels disconnected with what the idea of 'Indiana Jones' is supposed to be.

Of all the films, Last Crusade has the best emotional core as it's a father/son story. It was seen as a very satisfying "conclusion" to the series.

The switch in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was a two-edged sword, the balance between making artistic choices you can stand behind and the expectations of the audience. The thing is that the difference between the 30's and 50's in terms of world history is huge, Indiana Jones thrived in a time period where the world still felt large and unexplored. Trying to keep to the classic format and ignoring the changing times could have been just as disastrous.

So if the original trilogy was an homage to adventure serials from the 30's and Crystal Skull was an homage to sci-fi serials from the 50's, then what's the fifth movie going to homage? I assume it will have to be set in the 60's, so what are going to expect to see here? I assume the series will go back to adventure serials, but the 60's struck me as being more interested in spy fiction at that point with the Cold War starting to kick up.

Well, the early sixties were the twilight years of the fifties and "the man with the hat." Seems a fitting time to pass the torch, which I am absolutely certain they're planning on doing.

This time period is also when the Cuban Missile Crisis occurred and James Bond and its Martini-flavored ilk arose. They already planted the seeds for some Spy Fiction with the upcoming installment, given Indy's history as a secret agent and being partly inspired by James Bond. Of course, this presents a huge Genre Shift, more so than even KOTC, which a lot of fans still resent to this day.

Screenwriter decided. That's a bunch of bad movies under his belt(the good JP 1 was mostly Crichton) and his newer ones are all over the place in quality.

edited 18th Mar '16 1:51:04 PM by LordofLore

I liked the villains in TLC. I thought that Indy and Elsa was really good (second only to him and Marion imo). And yeah, I was surprised by the twist the first time than I saw the fil (and the fact that she played both the father and the son was rather amusing). Ford and Connery play off of each other really well, Sallah and Brody are entertaining (although I am somewhat sympathetic to the argument that some make that TLC makes Brody into too much of a bumbling buffoon, compared to his characterization in ROTLA). Donovan's death was definitely meant to be karmic, as was Elsa's, and both are satisfying in that regard. And the father/son story is really the most genuinely emotional one of, well any of the films. And it's got some cool action, genuinely funny moments, and by the end I found myself, satisfied. Like if they'd never made another one, that'd have been a great way to end things. I'd rank the films as follows.

1. ROTLA. 2. TLC. 3. KOTCS. 4. TOD.

I can't help but think Brody was going through early stages of dementia or something during Last Crusade. I mean, in Crystal Skull he's revered and there's no bad words about him, while in Last Crusade he's mocked some for being incompetent.

Should we start a new thread solely for general Indiana Jones discussions, or should we probably holler at a mod to rename this thread into a general discussion thread?

The latter is more appropriate. This thread has widened its scope.

All in favour of "General Indiana Jones Thread"?

edited 18th Mar '16 4:35:49 PM by Quag15

How exactly do I holler at a mod to ask them to change the title?

Click the yellow triangle in the appropriate post (post 63 seems to be fine), write what you want to ask/request and wait.

If you want, I can do that.

edited 18th Mar '16 4:40:47 PM by Quag15

Already done, thanks.

So I've been reading some posts on fan forums discussing the extent of Ford's role in the movie, and some are theorizing that he will bookend the movie, with the core of the film being an adventure set in the thirties or fourties. A popular casting choice for a younger Indy is Chris Pratt, apparently.

Not a fan of the idea, and it seems highly unlikely, but interestingly/funnily enough, if they were to have a grumpy Harrison Ford narrate a tale rooted in his past to, say, a counter-culture hippie, Indy V would essentially be The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles with a $200 million dollar budget.

Has anyone watched The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, by any chance?

Boo to Chris Pratt.

Chris Pratt would make a good Indiana Jones, man. Bradley Cooper would be better, though.

Chris Pratt is like everybody's favorite choice to be Indy. I mean, I like him and all, but seriously? I just don't see it.

I seriously doubt that Ford will just be here to open and bookend the movie, especially if it's his last one (which it should be). He's going to want to PLAY Indy properly, one last time.

He didn't even do that the last time as far as I am concerned, so the likelihood of him doing so in this next film is vanishingly small.

Him agreeing to do this film is just misplaced pride, and an almost juvenile attempt to prove he has still got "it" whatever "it" is.

I never saw Pratt as Indy. Cooper's a good choice, but my vote is for Tom Hardy.