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Is current pop culture symptomatic of a crushing pessimism towards the world and the future?

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ZeroPoint Since: Feb, 2013
#1: Mar 5th 2016 at 2:40:20 AM

Looking at most forms of popular entertainment today, I can't help but feel worried: most popular blockbuster movies are either trying to cash in on nostalgia, involve superheros (more on this later) or are post apocalyptic.

While most of this can be blamed on unimaginative risk averse Hollywood executives, the fact of the matter is that these things do draw in a crowd. But why do people keep wanting this? Why don't we have optimistic sci-fi like Star Trek again? Heck, can you name a SINGLE film that has a POSITIVE view of the future?

I think it's because people seem to have given up hope of the future. These days it seems to me that people seem to have just accepted things are terrible and will keep getting worse but just choose to pretend that everything is OK. And they consume this entertainment because it appeals to their fantasies: nostalgia allows them to relive their days of happiness, superheroes let them fantasize of a world where all problems can be solved by punching people and post-apocalypse can let them carry out their delusions that in such a scenario they would be "free" of the pressures of society and money as opposed to getting horribly killed.

What do you guys think?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2: Mar 5th 2016 at 2:53:52 AM

Potentially an interesting topic of discussion so opening.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#3: Mar 5th 2016 at 3:47:03 AM

It does seem that way. In part, I think this due to the success of apocalyptic idealogues. It's taboo on the left to mention any level of doubt that civilization will completely collapse due to man's hubris within decades. And so you see widespead denialism among conservatives as a backlash.

You see also that the environmentalist movement has become increasingly unmoored from the scientific community, with their ridiculous hysteria about GM Os.

This wasn't always the case. The left used to be the pro-science optimists who had faith in progress. But nihilistic attitudes have taken over, and these days being an optimist attracts derision.

That's not to say civilization might not end on 2020 or whenever. Sure. But I willing to bet that if it does happen, it'll in no small part due to pessimistic attitudes which make people tune out instead of participating.

But I think this generation on a path to slowly regaining our optimistic spirit. See The Lego Movie. Not sci-fi, but the unironic optimism you see in this movie is rare these days.

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#4: Mar 5th 2016 at 5:00:22 AM

I am not sure that I agree with that statement. I don't think that current pop culture is bleak, more that it is realistic instead of 100% idealistic. But the aesops in the end remain mostly optimistic.

Take Mass Effect, and its famous ending. Many people complained that it gave no chance to save the Player Character who dies no matter what (...probably). So they called it dark and depressing, completely ignoring the fact that the entire trilogy is extremely idealistic on pretty much every single other matter. In particular, 3 offers you the chance to peacefully solve a space version of the Israel-Palestine conflict. And even if you might fail to solve it that way, the best way to succeed...is for Shepard to be an all-around nice, friendly person who does not care about petty grudges and embraces new alien cultures instead of despising them. There is exactly one instance in the entire trilogy where being nice can have bad consequences - and it results in the death of one secondary character. On the other hand, being a dick can cause entire races to go extinct.

True, the ME universe is not happy. You have racism, injustice, petty politicians failing to do the right thing...but for all these flaws, the games retain a globally optimistic tone. Being jaded and selfish is pointless and will not have positive consequences.

It is not the only media in that case, it is just a very good example IMO - Jessica Jones would be another. The world is not perfect, but it is not a lost cause either. And becoming a pessimist does not solve any problem, so you might as well remain optimistic.

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#5: Mar 5th 2016 at 5:15:58 AM

I think there's an argument to be made that the reason pop-culture is either positive or negative is because they're stories. They have beginnings and ends. Life doesn't work like that, rather whatever time period you're born in is your reality, but it will continue on without you for better or for worse.

People might be starting to see, that overt optimism in the future is not a realistic outlook in life even if it is motivating. So the gravitation to the darker side of fiction is stronger, as there's a realisation that you cannot remove the uncertainty and difficult subjects from life. Things like transhumanism and cyberpunk, show what we want and fear from our society. We know what the problem is without illusions, and we want to fix it, but also acknowledge that it can go very wrong.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#6: Mar 5th 2016 at 5:16:57 AM

When it comes to storytelling, most of the stories I'm planning on writing are more into earning happy endings. Also, I tend to be equal-opportunity with characters (women doing much as men, multinational teams, having characters that are gay or bi, etc.), but I'm not sure if ideas like these are liked.

Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#7: Mar 5th 2016 at 5:24:00 AM

Take Mass Effect, and its famous ending. Many people complained that it gave no chance to save the Player Character who dies no matter what (...probably). So they called it dark and depressing, completely ignoring the fact that the entire trilogy is extremely idealistic on pretty much every single other matter.

That's the point of the complaints. The entire rest of the series allowed you to enact your own level of idealism, and the ending of 3 had overwritten all of that in one fell swoop. You have no choice but to agree with the downright Nazi(even with the rhetoric and everything) ideology of the Reapers, enacting their so-called "solutions", and then you die. You can't even question the Holographic Hitler Kid when it's ranting about how synthetics always rebel, you can't even bring it up that (depends on your choices) your Shepard personally knows how deeply wrong it is.

My Shepard had solved the conflict between Geth and Quarians. Why in the love of fuck would my Shepard just stand there and take the Catalyst's pathetic ranting at face value? Why would a trilogy that's all about varying levels of idealism, hope, and choice, end in such a disgusting manner? Why would the so-called Extended Cut make this part even worse? I don't care what they're doing with the series anymore, I will never forgive it for this.

I've seen bad endings, sure. I applaud a properly done bad ending, they're fascinating. I've seen a fair share of disappointing resolutions too. But for whatever reason, I've never had my emotional investment shat on so thourougly by a story before Mass Effect 3 or since.

Now, onto something more relevant - I'm fine with some cynical themes, but the one that irks me the most is post-apocalypse, particularly zombie apocalypse(looking at you, Walking Dead, you overrated piece of...). What baffles me is that people never really cooperate in those stories for long, or if they do they're always betrayed in a horrific manner meant to shoe-horn "ohhh woe is us, we're such an evil species, wah waaah" dumbass message, and half-crazy asshole loners are meant to have the correct approach, despite how laughably unrealistic that'd be in a comparative situation.

What I'd love to see is a zombie story where a community faces struggles and hardships, but does survive without going fucking Crawford or some other dumbass strawman, and characters with a traditional zombie apocalypse fiction mentality would be villains, who do not win. Just once, I want to see that. Post-apocalypse fiction can have other themes than "people can't cooperate and trust, please ignore our entire history as a species built on cooperation and trust."

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#8: Mar 5th 2016 at 5:28:12 AM

Personally, I tend to write more towards medieval fantasy for my own amusement, but focus heavily on the reality of violence (shattered bones, infected wounds etc.), the scars war leaves on people and so on. The heroes might defeat the great villain, but it doesn't really change anything fundamentally in the universe (the war maybe over but now you have disabled veterans, orphans, disease).

[up]

"You can't trust people outside of your own group" is the theme as far as I can see (and inherent in the culture over here). Post-apocalyptic stuff tends to bore me though.

edited 5th Mar '16 5:33:44 AM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
hellomoto Since: Sep, 2015
#9: Mar 5th 2016 at 5:57:52 AM

I've always thought the lesson is "cooperation and trust are very shaky, it takes just a push for everything to crumble". Something like that.

edited 5th Mar '16 5:58:00 AM by hellomoto

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#10: Mar 5th 2016 at 6:00:05 AM

I have one counter-argument: Steven Universe.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Corvidae It's a bird. from Somewhere Else Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
It's a bird.
#11: Mar 5th 2016 at 6:02:46 AM

I enjoy post-apocalyptic works mostly for the aesthetics. Overgrown buildings, rusty steampunk-esque machinery, people in crazy tribal gear, etc. Tone-wise I tend to go for a mix of pseudo-realistic, dark grittiness and the idealistic hope that things will still somehow work out okay.

Even the original Star Trek series, with it's very optimistic view of humanity's future, still had some pretty dark elements every now and then as well.

Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#12: Mar 5th 2016 at 6:04:03 AM

[up][up]Dood, spoilers, doooood.

Also, when it comes to overall positive or negative atmosphere of the work, the position of the protagonist matters infinitely more, than the position of the setting. Take One Punch Man, for example. The setting is extremely bleak - people die and cities crumble daily, the heroes meant to save them are either ineffectual or corrupt and power-mad, and anyone can become a horrific monster if they wish hard enough for it. But the protagonist is a man who deeply understands what it means to be a true hero, and who can't ever be meaningfully challenged, let alone defeated.

edited 5th Mar '16 6:04:13 AM by Luminosity

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#13: Mar 5th 2016 at 6:05:23 AM

As for postapocalypic, I present to you,

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#14: Mar 5th 2016 at 6:11:55 AM

@Luminosity: I completely disagree with your point on the endings but considering this is not the topic of this thread I will PM you on the matter.

I think that another issue is that sometimes (especially in TV series) the reality of seasonal writing can override the original intent of the show. If you take a single season of TWD: there was a catastrophe, survivors managed to gather and tried to recreate a society, and despite their efforts being thwarted by bad luck or any other reason, they managed to remain human.

Now, if you take the entirety of TWD: why do they even bother? Every time there is a glimmer of hope, it ends up being squashed, usually because the other human communities they encounter end up being a warped version of society Every season they look for a refuge, every season they end up on the road, and never even get a shot at happiness.

All in all I prefer the shows that give the good with the bad, and while storylines usually revolve around the bad because of Rule of Drama, the good should not be omitted. Except of course for shows who depict an idealistic society in appearance - in which case the message is usually that perfection does not exist and that a normal, flawed society is worth fighting for.

Corvidae It's a bird. from Somewhere Else Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
It's a bird.
#15: Mar 5th 2016 at 6:12:56 AM

[up][up] Well, that was weird.

Speaking of apocalypses, I guess there's also this notion that a major catastrophe of some kind might be just what it takes for people to "get their priorities straight" so to speak and start working together. That's kind of a nice thought in an odd way.

edited 5th Mar '16 6:13:06 AM by Corvidae

Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#16: Mar 5th 2016 at 6:27:44 AM

[up]

People generally want to survive another day, so if you need that one arsehole you'll tolerate him. At least until you don't need him anymore (the Continuation War comes to mind).

While Star Trek is essentially humans creating utopia after World War 3, Post-Nuclear Horror and the Eugenics Wars, not that many species in that universe had the same thing and many of them were not particularly forthcoming towards the Federation. I think DS 9 did this well with Section 31, which even predates the Federation. Star Trek is post-apocalyptic in a sense.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#17: Mar 5th 2016 at 8:52:05 AM

I think some of this goes down to a misconception many writers have that having competent Reasonable Authority Figures would break drama. For example, if police were competent, there'd be no reason for your super hero. So, they reason, authority figures must always be incompetent or evil. This isn't necessarily the case, however. In the example of super-hero stories, you can portray police as being good at stopping regular mooks (in fact, since the police operate in the open and can be in more places at once, they can be considered Boring, but Practical compared to super heroes), but are understandably outmatched by supervillains.

Is this symptomatic of our culture? Sort of. I'd argue it's actually a feed-back loop: The less we portray competent authority figures, the less likely we are to believe in them, and the less likely we are to portray them. This probably won't reduce most of us to Bomb-Throwing Anarchists.

As for post-apocalyptia and dystopia, they're genres that take the "Authority figures can't be good and competent" rule to opposite extremes, and while the genres can be mixed, they are natural opposites.

Post Apocalyptia, I'd argue, is actually pro-establishment in a way, by having a setting where Anarchy Is Chaos. The heroes are often tasked with re-establishing society. For example, Fallout 4's Minuteman storyline essentially goes: "Civilization has collapsed, and now raiders wander about taking whatever they want! So, it's up to you to re-invent police and public infrastructure!".

Of course, these stories are often cynical-they almost always use Hobbes Was Right to full effect. In addition, they also often include some kind of fear-mongering along the lines of "Do this to prevent the apocalypse!". Sometimes they're combined with dystopia, as well, where both the lack of civilization and certain types of civilization are both evil.

Now, with Zombie Apocalypses, a problem I think they have is that they usually focus too much on human vs. human conflict rather than the actual zombies. Personally, I prefer something like the I Am Legend movie where it's essentially a man vs nature Robinsonade story of epic proportions.

Leviticus 19:34
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#18: Mar 5th 2016 at 9:05:09 AM

Now, with Zombie Apocalypses, a problem I think they have is that they usually focus too much on human vs. human conflict rather than the actual zombies. Personally, I prefer something like the I Am Legend movie where it's essentially a man vs nature Robinsonade story of epic proportions.

That's because the zombies themselves are, to be honest, boring. They don't have any personalities, motivations, or real character besides going around spreading their plague and overwhelming civilization. It more or less goes without saying that many stories would focus on the human drama as opposed to the zombies, because that is the root of most good stories. Even I Am Legend, if i'm not mistaken, has flashbacks and stuff to give emotional context to the movie.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#19: Mar 5th 2016 at 9:07:52 AM

Yes, but instead of making the drama about humans doing the Zombies' jobs for them, it could be about humans overcoming difficulties together.

You had that small woodland community in The Last Of Us. They got no focus whatsoever.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#20: Mar 5th 2016 at 9:09:02 AM

I'm also not a fan of post-apocalyptic, but the genre's been around in many forms at least since the dawn of the atomic age made us start considering the end of humanity. Apocalypse stories, of course, are Older Than Dirt, but i'm not sure that fiction really started considering what it would look like after the end until the bomb, simply because before that the end was always envisioned as a religious thing where there would be no afterwards, at least none that humans could comprehend.

Grim n Gritty vs idealistic goes in constant cycles, and what prevails varies by genre. Compare superhero films which are in the midst of it, whereas comics themselves broke out of it 20 years ago with Kingdom Come at the end of the wave launched by Watchmen and TDKR.

Post-apocalyptic is hot right now in video games and American TV, but is passe in Anime because anime already had its phase influenced by fear of (or simply consideration of the implications of) nuclear holocaust (for obvious reasons), although you get series that still deal with it, like High School Of The Dead or Attack On Titan, but the former definitely is influenced by genre popularity in the west, and the latter probably is too, since it hits all the themes of zombacalypse, just with giants. Eventually The Walking Dead will spawn one too many big-budget copycats, the sub-genre will tank, and everything will go in a different direction following the next breakout hit.

Art is a dialogue between the artist and society (which includes real events, culture, and other art, past and present), so i don't think it's fair to say that "culture" is so monolithic as to influence whether art tends towards dark or idealistic, because different artists grow up in different situations. Horatio-Alger style idealistic rags-to-riches stories were popular in the same gilded age that gave us The Jungle. Little Orphan Annie was a rags-to-riches story that deliberately defied socialist ideas, because the author was a huge anti-communist, but took the desperation of the era and turned it on its head. Similarly Superman, born at the tail end of the Great Depression.

Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#21: Mar 5th 2016 at 9:09:28 AM

I Am Legend meant to have a twist in which it turns out that the monsters are terrified of the human.

The only zombie work that focuses on the monsters, other than humans, I can think of is Resident Evil 1-3. Until Code Veronica, Resident Evil games had like 1-2 human villains each, who die quickly and aren't fought. But that one managed that by first being a videogame, and second - having much more varied monster gallery than just zombies.

edited 5th Mar '16 9:10:20 AM by Luminosity

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#22: Mar 5th 2016 at 9:13:19 AM

Part of the reason why live-action zombie stuff so often focuses on the humans is the same reason why the superhero series Flash and Arrow spend so much time on 7th-heaven-style drama: it's much cheaper.

Luminosity is right about video games tending to be better about that because you don't have that restrictions and can make your monsters as weird, lively, diverse, and numerous as you want.

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#23: Mar 5th 2016 at 9:18:24 AM

I agree with Ogodei that these things come and go in phases.

For just one example, prior to Star Wars, most of the movies in american cinema were cynical and gritty drama films. SW changed everything and paved the way for a wave of optimistic sci-fi that lasted for a while. I hear Ridley Scott's The Martian harkens back to that earlier idealism but haven't seen it myself.

When I was studying brazilian literature, it was mostly "the last movement was ass, so we're doing the opposite of that" over and over. Basically the same with European art movements, as well. Currently in our post-modern era you can pretty much get a work with any tone and subject.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#24: Mar 5th 2016 at 9:43:34 AM

For what it's worth, Zombies can be boring, though I think most ZA writers forget how terrifying such a concept actually is and often assume that individual zombies are too weak a threat and that the only way they can accomplish anything is via Zerg Rush. This isn't necessarily the case: for example, Zombies only being weak against brain damage is a borderline Game-Breaker that's usually taken for granted (doing direct damage to an enemy's brain is not easy).

With I Am Legend, it helps that the movie uses more "human" monsters than most Zombie Apocalypse stories. The zombies have emotions, community, and memory. They know the hero personally, and don't just want to omnomnom him, they personally loathe him.

Leviticus 19:34
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#25: Mar 5th 2016 at 9:54:32 AM

Stephen King's Cell does something different where the zombies have a hivemind of sorts and can do a few more things than the average zombie, like levitate.


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