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Riverdale, an Archie Comics adaptation on the CW

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#526: Nov 15th 2018 at 9:12:30 PM

I actually thought Hal was the Black Hood pretty much from the start of season two. Well, to be fair, it was a continuation of my suspicions from season one, where I was convinced he was Jason's murderer.

Hal always struck me as a dangerous, self-righteous, potentially violent lunatic. Pretty much the moment the Black Hood called Betty for the first time, I was like, "Yup, it's Hal."

With regards to the Gargoyle King, I think they're going to have a hard time explaining him away as a non-supernatural entity after this episode. Jughead's game - the scenario of which he is noted to have come up with himself, mind you - so blatantly reflected the actual events transpiring around "the Red Paladin's" escape that it'd be a stretch to say it isn't magical.

I am all set for the Gargoyle King to be legit supernatural, because any other explanation is going to be unsatisfactory.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 15th 2018 at 10:13:32 AM

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windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#527: Nov 16th 2018 at 12:53:18 AM

Could you elaborate more on why you felt Hal was bad enough to be the Black Hood please?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#528: Nov 16th 2018 at 6:47:26 AM

Because I was shocked when he wasn't Jason Blossom's killer. He had a blood feud with the Blossoms in which:

  • He threw around language like saying he'd die before he'd let a Blossom take his daughter.
  • He punished his daughter for transgressing against him by sending her to the Sisters of Quiet Mercy and then lied to Betty's face about it for years. He also tried to force her to abort her child.
  • He actively broke into Sheriff Keller's office to steal evidence.
  • He tried to cow Alice into submission over Polly's daughter by screaming in her face about his blood feud.
  • He spitefully fired Alice from the Register when she tried to publish a story against his own blood nemeses because she'd made him leave the house, demonstrating that even vengeance against his sworn enemies isn't as important as his wife and daughter's subservience to him.

Now, by the end of season one, we're told that he had reasons for what he did. Specifically, Polly's child was an incest-baby and he wanted to conceal that. Which is fine enough to explain why he made the choices he did, but it does not excuse his manner of going about it.

In Hal's actions, he demonstrated that he is a domineering and abusive person. He demands absolute control over his household and punishes disobedience. He has zero regard for the law and for basic decency; he considers himself the only authority and he reacts with swift retribution when undermined. The only thing he resents more than his sworn enemies, the Blossoms, is being questioned by the women in his home; in his mind, Hal Cooper doesn't need to explain himself to anyone.

Now, Alice has her own shittiness too, I should note. But her being shitty doesn't excuse Hal's shittiness. Betty's home life is awful. But between the two, Alice struck me as "LOL, it's cute that you try to have opinions," shitty while Hal struck me as "9/11, my dad is beating a man with a crowbar," shitty.

It was genuinely shocking to me that he hadn't abducted Jason, tortured him out of spite, and then murdered him for blood vengeance over Polly. He seemed like exactly that kind of person to me. He's an amoral, self-righteous, "traditional" misogynist who treats his daughters as property and would do anything to hurt the people he hates, with whom he reacts with equal parts contempt and disgust. He was my prime suspect.

So when the Black Hood started trying to groom Betty to follow in his footsteps, that was the only clue I needed to click it together and go, "Yep. That's him. Fits the profile perfectly."

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 16th 2018 at 7:50:36 AM

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windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#529: Nov 16th 2018 at 7:06:12 AM

I think the reason all this went over my head was because unlike most examples of an abusive father and husband, Hal isn’t portrayed as being pretty much able to run the house. Alice and Betty repeatedly defy him to his face, Alice kicks him out and of course there’s the scene of her laughing at the idea of Hal killing anyone (talk about Harsher in Hindsight).

Alice’s shittiness stick out more for me because it seemed she was more able to get her way.

Edited by windleopard on Nov 16th 2018 at 7:06:32 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#530: Nov 16th 2018 at 7:41:40 AM

The show definitely used Alice's shittiness to deflect from Hal's. They liked to play coy with just how awful he is.

With the Blossoms, they were like, "Hal's terrible, Hal's terrible... oh, but it's okay because he's against awful people!'

And then season two came along and there was Chic. And it was like, "Hal's terrible, Hal's terrible... oh, but it's okay because he's against an awful person!"

And then we got the Black Hood, and suddenly "He's terrible but it's okay because he's against awful people" was exposed as effectively being his murderous M.O.

Hal is a great example of a point I like to make in morality debates: being against something that is bad does not make you good. You have to be for things that are good to be good. In the longstanding feud between Coopers and Blossoms, there doesn't actually have to be a "right" side. They can very easily just both be shitheads.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 16th 2018 at 8:43:08 AM

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Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
#531: Nov 18th 2018 at 11:24:57 AM

Any thoughts on the theory that Cheryl is a witch? The theory mostly comes from Cheryl and Sabrina both being associated with the color red, and Cheryl's spider broach matches Hilda's spider familiars.

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#532: Nov 18th 2018 at 11:32:27 AM

Sounds like clickbait to me.

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#533: Nov 18th 2018 at 11:36:13 AM

Josie and the Pussycats' rival Alexandria Cabot is a witch, though I don't know enough about the show to know if she's in it or not.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
32ndfreeze Since: Mar, 2012
#535: Nov 18th 2018 at 3:16:19 PM

Cheryl has been unstable enough previously there's no way she wouldn't have used any potential powers already.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#536: Nov 18th 2018 at 4:57:47 PM

Guys, I really can't see this show confirming any supernatural elements like that exist here.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#537: Nov 18th 2018 at 8:19:25 PM

After Jughead's G&G quest that he wrote up himself accurately reflected current events transpiring alongside the session, it'd be pretty hard not to.

This Red Paladin shit is significantly more contrived if the show tries to assert that there's nothing supernatural going on.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 18th 2018 at 9:20:56 AM

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MegaJ Since: Oct, 2009
#538: Nov 18th 2018 at 9:47:12 PM

Don't Archie and Sabrina take place in the same universe, comics-wise? So Riverdale wouldn't be deviating too much from that if they brought in the supernatural elements.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#539: Nov 18th 2018 at 9:49:15 PM

Yes. In fact, Sabrina began her character life in Archie. Sabrina the Teenage Witch is a spinoff.

Greendale, the setting for Sabrina, is right across the titular river of Riverdale. It's appeared in the show already; Greendale is where Ms. Grundy went after leaving Riverdale in season 1, and where she was murdered in season 2.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 18th 2018 at 10:50:28 AM

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NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#540: Nov 20th 2018 at 8:07:06 PM

My reactions to the recent episode;

  • Jughead sells out to the crazy tabletop cult. ...Mensis Stooge.
  • Warden guy is more insane than I thought he was.
  • Do I want to know the mechanism of how Mad Dog was still alive?
  • The Mayor gets down to business with her daughter and husband.

Mullon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#541: Nov 23rd 2018 at 5:15:38 PM

The Mayor gets down to business with her daughter and husband.

What?

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.
NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#542: Nov 23rd 2018 at 9:37:57 PM

She puts her foot down, in other words.

Hermione is sick and tired of all this "criminal underworld" nonsense tearing her family apart.

Especially I imagine when you have a baby-sacrificing cult and a messed up, sacrifice ritual happy game in town. And I am convinced, 100% convinced, that the cult and the game are related. The cult founder's daughter was involved in it, and in the recent preview the Gargoyle King is described as having disciples.

Let alone the talk of sacrifice. What did we first see Alice and Polly's little friends doing? Yeah. Weird child sacrifice-esque stuff and vague mysticism.

So glad Betty is basically going "Okay, fuck this esoteric nonsense. No more secrets. All of you come clean. NOW."

Edited by NickTheSwing on Nov 23rd 2018 at 9:42:27 AM

NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#543: Nov 24th 2018 at 12:15:13 AM

...I just realized what the people saying we may have seen the King before might've been saying.

There was an interview saying we may have seen the Gargoyle King before.

Recall the episode where Jughead and Archie deliver a box to Greendale. The box was...moving.

I think that might've been the Gargoyle King.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#544: Nov 27th 2018 at 3:21:55 PM

How exactly did Archie even end up on trial when the witnesses Hiram paid to accuse him of murder where nowhere to be found?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#545: Nov 27th 2018 at 3:28:08 PM

Because the Lodges are the law in Riverdale.

You don't need witnesses to try a person for a criminal offense; you need them in the courtroom for evidential purposes, but not to actually start a trial. To try an accused suspect, you just need a prosecutor willing to press charges. Since the Lodges hold the mayorship and sheriff's office, that wouldn't be too hard to come by.

Technically, I could arrest you and try you for any offense under the sun. I just wouldn't be able to prove any of them without substantial evidence. Due to the Double Jeopardy law, this typically discourages prosecutors from initiating frivolous trials without sufficient proof; had Archie been declared not guilty of the charge, the Lodges would never be able to have him tried again for it.

But the rules and standards get kinda wonky when corruption takes hold of the system.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 27th 2018 at 4:32:04 AM

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ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#546: Nov 28th 2018 at 5:35:14 PM

I like the little meta nod of Joaquin calling Archie 'Jughead's pal'.

There's a lot of interesting camera work this episode, from the overhead shots of Betty while confronting the parents to the tilting while Mineta was talking to Josie.

Mullon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#547: Nov 28th 2018 at 6:51:10 PM

I like how Jughead ditched his actual girlfriend while she's being abducted to live on the road with Archie.

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.
NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#548: Nov 28th 2018 at 7:26:59 PM

So let me get this straight. The Gargoyle King exists but he doesn't, Warden Norton was more important than he looked, and the Cult was actually involved with him.

Alice, you're trying to avoid trouble by heading to its nest.

This episode is incredibly confusing and I love it.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#549: Nov 29th 2018 at 5:11:35 AM

Really heavy with that Scream reference, Riverdale.

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#550: Nov 29th 2018 at 11:05:43 AM

Well when you've got Billy Loomis himself, you gotta lean into it, you know?


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