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unknowing "GREAT AND GLORIOUS DESAPAIR!" from somewhere..
"GREAT AND GLORIOUS DESAPAIR!"
Oct 9th 2018 at 4:30:26 PM

[up]Pretty much, in one episode the clash with the four horsemen, in another they have to deal with chinise magic and in one they contact a voodoo sorcer

In fact it was quite hilarious because the guy look just lika black men in a buissness suit and when page inquiered about it, he just sight and said "one try to update oneselft for this day and age and yet always ask about that", it was quite funny.

"There is only one truth in this life and that is DESPAIR!"
AlleyOop Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Oct 10th 2018 at 9:25:44 PM

They've announced the actress for Ciri for the live-action Witcher series, and as people correctly surmised, the rumors about her being played by a black actress or other were a load of bullshit. Hopefully there's no backlash from anyone who genuinely believed it and were looking forward to more diverse casting, as this is one of those cases where it's for the better that they didn't.

On the other hand, Yennefer is played by an actress of mixed Indian descent so we are getting some diversity in the casting after all, for a character where it's much less inappropriate.

Edited by AlleyOop on Oct 10th 2018 at 12:43:03 PM

Oct 10th 2018 at 9:37:06 PM

If they were planning on casting a poc actress, the backlash likely made them change their minds.

AlleyOop Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Oct 10th 2018 at 9:50:30 PM

I doubt they ever actually intended to. Angry complaints of a racist nature are usually not enough to make studios back off when it comes to this kind of thing; I doubt most of the backlash would've been over genuine concerns about the Unfortunate Implications of making a whole race of dark-skinned villains.

Oct 10th 2018 at 10:13:43 PM

Would making Ciri a poc mean all the elves have to be poc as well?

AlleyOop Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Oct 10th 2018 at 10:27:44 PM

As someone pointed out earlier, most likely since it's a plot point that her elven heritage is very visible on her.

Edited by AlleyOop on Oct 10th 2018 at 1:27:54 PM

eagleoftheninth He heranama ahau! Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
He heranama ahau!
Oct 10th 2018 at 11:52:10 PM

Not familiar with The Witcher, but I just want to point out that The Dragon Prince has multiethnic elves.

"tbf, bae, idgaf"
Oct 11th 2018 at 12:18:50 AM

Which is a good opportunity to plug the show again. The Dragon Prince does great in terms of diversity.

Oct 11th 2018 at 9:13:09 AM

Would making Ciri a poc mean all the elves have to be poc as well?

And Nilfgaard, and maybe a couple other kingdoms too. The reason the backlash was so harsh is because Ciri's bloodline is an extremely important plot point, making her basically the last character you should Race Lift. Yennefer is a much better choice; as a sorceress, she was abandoned by her family and used magic to change her appearance, so her ethnicity is completely irrelevant.

Zanthype from The Tardis Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
Oct 11th 2018 at 1:39:36 PM

I saw Hermione's activism for the house elves brought up pages ago with the discussion about Rowling, and I kind of wanted to discuss that a little more. I genuinely think Rowling deserves a little benefit of the doubt on that. I don't think she was saying that activism is bad, but that ignorant activism is bad.

Hermione pesters the elves, trying to "free" them even when they say that they are content and like what they do. The house elves in Hogwarts view S.P.E.W as offensive to their beliefs. But Hermione ignores them and goes as far as to hide clothes in the Gryffindor rooms to trick them. They're so fed up and angry over this that they stop going into Gryffindor tower at all.

The problem here isn't that Hermione cares, it's that she repeatedly stomps on the wishes and beliefs of the minority that she's trying to help and tries to force them to change their way of living because it offends her.

In 900 years of time and space, I've never met anyone who wasn't important
Larkmarn Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Oct 11th 2018 at 1:44:52 PM

That comes across as kind of a Distinction Without a Difference then, since it's using Hermione as a strawman and there's no genuine activism going on elsewhere.

And it's particularly jarring since up to that point, the sole house elf the books had was Dobby and he desperately wanted to be free. Yes, this book establishes him as an outlier but with a sample size of 1 we didn't know that.

Like, who is an aesop of "unwanted activism is bad" going to help? Is that really a lesson that needs teaching? Is it relatable in any way?

Oct 11th 2018 at 1:49:10 PM

Not to mention the fact that the entire plot rests on the fact that apparently, house elves, as a species, like being slaves… That is a weird goddamn concept and it is incredibly creepy and gross.

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
Oct 11th 2018 at 1:52:54 PM

It's based on the legend of the shoemaker. Elves come and make shoes for this idiot kid who never learned his father's trade. He eventually marries a talented seamstress, and the two of them decide to leave little shoes and clothes as gifts for the little elves. They take this as an insult and leave and never return again.

Old English tale.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Zanthype from The Tardis Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
Oct 11th 2018 at 2:01:13 PM

I was curious and went to the wiki and Pottermore and interestingly, Hermione later joins the Ministry of Magic and works in a magical creature division. According to Pottermore she's instrumental in changing the rules and regulations to better the lives of house elves and other magical creatures. She also joins law enforcement and becomes the Minister for Magic.

It's not an aesop that's necessarily done well. I think for that to really work, the books would need to show her coming to the realization that forcing the elves to change isn't helpful, and have her actually talk to them about what they want. That seems to be what happens later on though, given what we know about Hermione's future activism in the Wizarding government.

In 900 years of time and space, I've never met anyone who wasn't important
Ultimatum ◕_ ◕ from dreams within dreams,worlds within worlds Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
◕_ ◕
Oct 11th 2018 at 2:02:27 PM

Considering how timid and mistreated Dobby is I don't think it's a case of liking being slaves as much as they fear what the wizards would do to them if they spoke out.

And yeah,it's creepy and gross no arguments there

Doctor Who had something similar with a race that liked being invaded

May you lose your left sock and your right shoe
whizzerd Don't eat humans, okay? from Scotland Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Don't eat humans, okay?
Oct 11th 2018 at 2:08:48 PM

There's a recurring theme in fairytales of magical creatures (like fae, brownies, or the aforementioned elves) providing a service to humans but seeing gifts for said service as an insult.

Difference being that those magical creatures are free and aren't forced to act as slaves for the humans. The situation with the house-elves is creepy, whichever way you look at it.

reset myself and get back on track — goes by they/them, not he/him or she/her.
Oct 11th 2018 at 2:09:26 PM

That fairy tale of the elves and the shoes, though, doesn’t have anyone literally owning the elves, the elves do whatever the hell they want. If she was trying to adapt that, then she botched it rather badly, and played into racist tropes about how certain people like being slaves.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Oct 11th 2018 at 2:38:25 PM

The idea that magical creatures operate on some weird Blue and Orange Morality where they seem to value favors more than economy (and thus they often make transactions in he form of servitude). But making the decision to turn that into an actual system of slavery is going to lead to running into a brick wall of trouble.

Tolkien, whose knowledge of folk tales dwarfs everybody else in fantasy before or after him, notably never did so.

"Cobras Fumantes eterna é sua vitória!"
Tuckerscreator Every film should end with a Deus T. rex Machina from High Charity, the Prophet's Holy City Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Every film should end with a Deus T. rex Machina
Oct 11th 2018 at 3:34:20 PM

Arguably a better subject for the story to focus the “Hermione learns to not force what she thinks other peoples need” theme would’ve been the subplot about the centaurs, not the house elves. That plot avoids the tangle of trying to justify in-universe slavery. In it we see more directly the consequences of Hermione shoving a hazard on a different group of people and just expecting them to be cool with it, which naturally ticks folks off.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Oct 11th 2018 at 3:34:42 AM

"If your good mood was ruined because you got into an accident with a car..."
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
Oct 11th 2018 at 3:57:16 PM

I have no doubt JKR had the best of intentions. I've been a long time fan of her. But that doesn't mean she utterly failed at what she thought she was depicting.

JKR's strength is that she can regurtitate a lot of cultural information and archetypes. Her worldbuilding shows this, from how she collects names to how the world works. She can create something familiar but also different.

However she also doesn't really seem to question these archetypes.And she really doesn't ever do anything like question a system either. Yes, voldemort is evil, umbridge is evil, and the government is incompetent, but taking direct action? oh no, it's better to work within the system itself. Yes we see some rebellions, like DA, but that's more reactive. It's to solve one problem, and that's to learn defense against the dark arts. There's no deeper discussion on the ways Umbridge ended up in power or anything like that.

Why is Hermione a bad activist, but then later gets a desk job and makes everything better? Because that's the standard narrative. Activists don't really get a good rap in the common narrative. They're annoying people who ask you if you want to save the environment. And that's what JKR recreated.

buy my book!
Ultimatum ◕_ ◕ from dreams within dreams,worlds within worlds Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
◕_ ◕
Oct 11th 2018 at 4:11:23 PM

Oh dear god the centaurs,she literally wrote about a character (Umbridge )being carried off them

As someone who is familiar with myths, Umbridge did not deserve that fate

May you lose your left sock and your right shoe
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
Oct 11th 2018 at 4:23:42 PM

It's... interesting because for a book series that has Love and Compassion as a major theme, there's a lot of structural abhorrence towards a lot of characters.

buy my book!
KazuyaProta Dancing All Night For The Greater Good!!! from Dal'yth Relationship Status: Married to the job
Dancing All Night For The Greater Good!!!
Oct 11th 2018 at 4:54:00 PM

[up][up] I was going to mention that She's a posterwoman for Complete Monster and Hate Sink but I really can't bring myself to do it.

Space Anime Fish Xenos >>>>>>>>> Gothic Gue'la
Oct 11th 2018 at 5:40:09 PM

My read on Hermione and the house-elves is that it's not saying activism is bad; it's saying that activism needs to take into account the ideas and desires of the people on who's behalf you're advocating. Hermione's definitely well-intentioned and trying to do a good thing but, to use current terminology, most of what she does consists of Humansplaining to house-elves what they should want, and then ignoring their preferences when they won't listen to her.

The fact that house-elves are literally enslaved and culturally brainwashed means that it's really not the best way to communicate that message. Still, I do feel that its message is "here is a common mistake made by enthusiastic and well-meaning young activists", not "don't do activism at all".


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