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Diversity and Representation in Media

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A thread for discussing representation and diversity in all kinds of media. This covers creators and casting decisions as well as characters and in-universe discussions.

Historical works and decisions are in-scope as well, not just recent news.

Please put any spoilers behind tags and clearly state which work(s) they apply to.

    Original OP 
For discussing any racial, gender, and orientation misdoings happening across various movies and the film industry today.

This week, producer Ross Putnam started a Twitter account called "femscriptintros", where he puts up examples of how women are introduced in the screenplays he's read. And nearly all of sound like terrible porn or are too concerned with emphasizing said lady is beautiful despite whatever traits she may have. Here's a Take Two podcast made today where he talks about it.


(Edited April 19 2024 to add mod pinned post)

Edited by Mrph1 on Apr 19th 2024 at 11:45:51 AM

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#37526: Jul 29th 2024 at 10:20:56 AM

[up][up][up]Generic, psuedo-medieval country, and yet the woman still has 50s/60s, Marilyn Monroe-esque hair. It'll be weird in the future looking back at the period pieces (I know this wasn't a period piece, but it's a similar idea) we have today and seeing how out of place the hair styles will seem.

Latveria seems to be a mix of 'generic, old fashioned middle European country', with shades of places like Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia with the personality cult and worship of the leader.

Edited by king15 on Jul 29th 2024 at 5:21:21 PM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#37527: Jul 29th 2024 at 10:21:15 AM

Sure future writers retconned it as Doom forcing them to cosplay for some reason, but this was how it was portrayed in the 60s like it came out of a Dracula movie.

I'm gonna be honest, but... I don't see it? Those outfits don't actually look very archaic or anything, in my opinion.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Jul 29th 2024 at 7:22:00 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
MovieNut14 from the U.S. of A (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#37528: Jul 29th 2024 at 10:21:37 AM

Oy gevalt, Marvel Studios...

It's bad enough you've got Sabra being featured in your next movie as actual genocide is happening by their hands, and now this?

Y'all are in dire need of some PR overhaul, stat.

"We are all so afraid, we are all so alone, we all so need from the outside the assurance of our own worthiness to exist."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#37529: Jul 29th 2024 at 10:25:18 AM

[up][up][up] I genuinely don't know much about Romani culture or language, but is "herr" even in their language?

It does look like something Stan Lee took from Nazi Germany.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#37530: Jul 29th 2024 at 10:25:24 AM

It's Disney, they either are already in the gutter pr-wise or could shrug off the controversies like teflon

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Jul 29th 2024 at 10:25:40 AM

MovieNut14 from the U.S. of A (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#37531: Jul 29th 2024 at 10:26:41 AM

Fair, fair. But still...eesh.

"We are all so afraid, we are all so alone, we all so need from the outside the assurance of our own worthiness to exist."
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#37532: Jul 29th 2024 at 10:27:07 AM

[up][up][up]

Latveria's supposed to be located in the Banat region in the Balkans (which, among other ethnic groups, used to have a sizable German minority).

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Jul 29th 2024 at 7:27:39 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#37533: Jul 29th 2024 at 10:27:44 AM

Huh, interesting.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#37534: Jul 29th 2024 at 10:39:42 AM

I actually agree with Nordman, I'm just curious if there are Romani actors, they don't even have to be prominent. But alright, I guess there aren't from what I can search myself.

I bet they didn't even google search "IMDB Romani actors". That's not even close to the bare minimum, but I doubt they even did that.

I bet y'all didn't even google search "IMDB Romani actors". Because I did, and got this list of 74 Romani actors. It was the first result, super easy to find. If someone's asking "are there Romani actors", it's not hard to answer that question.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jul 29th 2024 at 10:41:34 AM

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#37535: Jul 29th 2024 at 10:41:41 AM

Is it really surprising the MCU has whitewashed yet another villain? Not like they have a track record of that or anything.

Oissu!
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#37536: Jul 29th 2024 at 10:49:02 AM

"I AM THE MANDARI—" (thwack)

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#37537: Jul 29th 2024 at 10:52:06 AM

[up][up]

They also only do that if they think they can get away with that - just imagine the backlash if they tried doing removing Magneto's background.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#37538: Jul 29th 2024 at 10:56:44 AM

[up][up]That one's an interesting take, though, because it uses the old Yellow Peril version of the character, seen through a War on Terror lens, and then deconstructs it as a stereotype that works for Western audiences.

And he's played by a biracial Brit of South Asian heritage, born Krishna Pandit Bhanji. So not exactly whitewashing... until the big reveal.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 6:57:51 PM

MovieNut14 from the U.S. of A (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#37539: Jul 29th 2024 at 11:30:16 AM

And then there's Tilda Swinton in Doctor Strange.

"We are all so afraid, we are all so alone, we all so need from the outside the assurance of our own worthiness to exist."
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#37540: Jul 29th 2024 at 11:38:20 AM

That can be partially blamed on China when Hollywood was trying to reach the box-office in there.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#37541: Jul 29th 2024 at 11:39:33 AM

[up]x4 Oh absolutely, I'm not justifying it. I think the casting of RDJ here sucks and a Romani actor should have been selected (even better if it was a relatively unknown actor). I'm saying I'm not surprised since again, the MCU has a track record with it.

[up]"Tibetan person exists" should not be so controversial. Disney needs to learn to ignore China's hissy fits.

Edited by PhiSat on Jul 29th 2024 at 11:40:25 AM

Oissu!
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#37542: Jul 29th 2024 at 11:44:45 AM

I haven't consumed any new MCU material for over 2 years now, and honestly, this news doesn't give me reason to change that.

Edited by Forenperser on Jul 29th 2024 at 8:44:53 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Logaritmus Since: Dec, 2022
#37543: Jul 29th 2024 at 12:03:39 PM

Honestly, I think, that MCU will carry alternate Tony Stark Doom, not classical Victor von Doom Doom. And it will be related to some multiverse sh*t, so Victor still be somewhere else.

MovieNut14 from the U.S. of A (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#37544: Jul 29th 2024 at 12:06:38 PM

Ugh, enough with the multiverses already. Stick with one timeline, Hollywood.

"We are all so afraid, we are all so alone, we all so need from the outside the assurance of our own worthiness to exist."
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#37545: Jul 29th 2024 at 12:09:04 PM

They gotta salvage the Kang plot somehow tongue

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#37546: Jul 29th 2024 at 2:08:02 PM

They could have easily cast a South or Southeast Asian actor for the Ancient One, or just written the character to be a mentor in a way that doesn't fall into Magical Asian stereotypes. There were so many ways to avert the worst possible scenario.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#37547: Aug 1st 2024 at 3:36:26 PM

I’m wholeheartedly in support of increased casting opportunities and more visible roles for minority actors. I do feel, though, that axiomatically insisting every role be cast in accordance with some preexisting canon is the wrong route to take here.

Consider, for example, Sofia Coppola’s film The Beguiled. When it came out there were accusations of whitewashing because Coppola removed the roles of several black characters that were present in the source material, as well as a prominent racism subplot. She explained this choice by stating that she wanted to tell a specific story focusing on the female experience, and she felt that those aspects of the original material would detract from that and that she would not be able to do those themes justice. Is that whitewashing or simply a different take on the source material? This begins to raise the question of how much an adaptation should be allowed to break from its source material, and in turn the question of how far outside their lived experience an actor should be able to take roles. Should an actor who is mentally healthy be allowed to play a character that’s mentally ill? Taken to its conclusion, this policy would also totally eliminate representation of any person with a disability that prevented them from acting.

There’s also the question of how exactly it should be determined which actors can take what parts. On paper making any casting choice based on race or other protected characteristics is illegal discrimination, at least in the US. There’s also the fact that not everyone from a specific racial group looks the same: is a white-passing minority actor acceptable to cast for roles that match their actual background, or only for roles that match their physical appearance?

They should have sent a poet.
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#37548: Aug 1st 2024 at 3:41:02 PM

There's also some uncomfortably problematic stuff bundled up with the concept that biracial actors with that ancestry can play Black roles but not white roles.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#37549: Aug 1st 2024 at 3:42:43 PM

Is it me, or do Wuxia movies do a better job at female representation than Hollywood movies? I watched Enter The Dragon the other day, and man, the women just don't catch a break there, heroes or villains. Lee's sister fights off multiple guys half a dozen times, but suddenly decides to kill herself once she's "cornered" by a couple guys (to motivate the hero, of course), and the female body guards don't even make an appearance during the big climax fight.

Meanwhile, the Wuxia movies I've been watching seem to be full of badass women who can take care of themselves and have independent leading roles.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#37550: Aug 1st 2024 at 3:53:55 PM

This begins to raise the question of how much an adaptation should be allowed to break from its source material,

In and of itself, as much as it wants, in my view at least. I don't hate it if an adaptation changes things, as long as it's still good. Even an In Name Only adaptation doesn't annoy me if it's still a good film, thought I get why people say They Changed It, Now It Sucks! (and myself think that sometimes if I think the change is significantly worse and not just a new spin). However, regarding the existence of, say, minority characters being cut, that depends. In and of itself, I don't think it's racist, especially if the reasoning is say 'this character was superfluous so was cut for pacing reasons', though there's always going to be Unfortunate Implications from that. What it does do is have the negative effect of reducing the already somewhat limited roles available for minorities.

I've not seen The Beguiled, but if Coppola's reasoning is the reason she removed the black characters, then I don't think the reason is necessarily wrong or that removing those characters was the wrong choice (it depends on whether their existence would have distracted from the story Coppola wanted to tell and that she wouldn't have had the time to fully explore the relevant themes). If it was white characters being removed, I wouldn't dislike the change on principal (it would depend on how removing those characters affected the story), so, by that logic, don't mind it for black characters. However, it does have the issue, as mentioned before, of reducing roles for minorities and also reduces the already relatively low amount of minority characters in works, problems that aren't the fault of this film, instead being the fault the film industry as a whole, but these problems are exacerbated by this removal of characters. To combat this, I would perhaps Race Lift some of the other characters in the film, though naturally this wouldn't work for every film (say a historical drama aiming for accuracy, or a work where the race of characters is important, I don't know if either of those is true for The Beguiled), and/or do colour blind casting.

Edited by king15 on Aug 1st 2024 at 11:04:32 AM


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