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Diversity and Representation in Media

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A thread for discussing representation and diversity in all kinds of media. This covers creators and casting decisions as well as characters and in-universe discussions.

Historical works and decisions are in-scope as well, not just recent news.

Please put any spoilers behind tags and clearly state which work(s) they apply to.

    Original OP 
For discussing any racial, gender, and orientation misdoings happening across various movies and the film industry today.

This week, producer Ross Putnam started a Twitter account called "femscriptintros", where he puts up examples of how women are introduced in the screenplays he's read. And nearly all of sound like terrible porn or are too concerned with emphasizing said lady is beautiful despite whatever traits she may have. Here's a Take Two podcast made today where he talks about it.


(Edited April 19 2024 to add mod pinned post)

Edited by Mrph1 on Apr 19th 2024 at 11:45:51 AM

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#33926: May 4th 2023 at 10:50:34 AM

Is the former falling under Single-Target Sexuality?

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#33927: May 4th 2023 at 10:51:04 AM

Some depictions I've seen of asexuality also include aromantic aspects to it.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#33928: May 8th 2023 at 6:48:39 AM

https://vt.co/entertainment/jaws-star-richard-dreyfuss-says-oscars-new-diversity-rules-makes-him-vomit?utm_source=vt&utm_medium=picturepost&fbclid=IwAR3-9ukX0YuPbfU4LB5EnXGj08nwwsstLjcZjJ1ztRnYIhfcuPoQwcrOKjQ

CONTEXT:'Jaws' star Richard Dreyfuss says Oscars new diversity rules 'makes him vomit'

Oh boy this hurts to read.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#33929: May 8th 2023 at 6:53:29 AM

"Laurence Olivier was the last white actor to play Othello, and he did it in 1965," Dreyfuss continued. "And he did it in blackface. And he played a black man brilliantly. Am I being told that I will never have a chance to play a Black man?"

"Is someone else being told that if they’re not Jewish, they shouldn’t play the Merchant of Venice? Are we crazy? Do we not know that art is art?" He said. "This is so patronizing. It’s so thoughtless and treating people like children."

Well yes, because they don't deserve to be left in the side lines for way too long. Isn't that too much to ask?

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#33930: May 8th 2023 at 6:55:08 AM

I want this racism to die with him. Not wishing death but hoping this racism wont thrive and fester.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#33931: May 8th 2023 at 6:57:33 AM

[up][up]

Yikes, imagine defending blackface in this day and age.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#33932: May 8th 2023 at 6:57:35 AM

I read through his rant a dozen times and it still didn't make any sense

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#33933: May 8th 2023 at 6:58:52 AM

Someone just became this year's valedictorian of clown school.

Leviticus 19:34
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#33934: May 8th 2023 at 7:03:46 AM

just makes me think of this meme

aka 'please stop saying dumbass things,'

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#33935: May 8th 2023 at 7:06:56 AM

The worst part is that he COULD have had a good point that we should be able to celebrate progressive and diverse movies without actually forcing people to be progressive and diverse. With that rule in place it will look like minorities are getting pity party awards. Like Parasyte and other diverse movies won a lot of awards WITHOUT the rule. Guillermo del Toro is Latino and had also won alot of Oscars.

But no. This guy just goes "MAN I CANT BE RACIST ANYMORE THAT SUCKS."

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#33936: May 8th 2023 at 7:10:06 AM

Thing is, those rules exist in the first place because Hollywood would rather not.

It's the same reason stuff like employment quotas exist.

We can talk about not having rules like that when discriminatory hiring practices etc stop being a thing.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on May 8th 2023 at 4:10:44 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#33937: May 8th 2023 at 7:23:56 AM

Dreyfuss, you're patronizing.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#33938: May 8th 2023 at 7:52:43 AM

The thing with Dreyfuss here is that there is maybe a discussion to have about the diversity rules since they’re, uh, real simplistic and not in a good way, but when he goes for a blackface role from 60 years ago where the consensus at the time was “eh, Olivier is fine in this role, but he’s kinda phoning it in” as his example, it’s really, really hard to see it as anything but him going “but why blackface bad though?” Like, why is that the example he had in his pocket?

It feels roughly equivalent to the idiots who try and manufacture reasons to get away with saying slurs and tend to either use ancient examples or really bad faith examples.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#33939: May 8th 2023 at 8:17:12 AM

"The diversity rules are simplistic and patronizing"

"That's a fair point —"

"Things were way better back when people could use blackface"

"What."

Disgusted, but not surprised
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#33940: May 8th 2023 at 9:00:34 AM

Don't forget:

"I wanted to someday use blackface in a movie."

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#33941: May 8th 2023 at 11:13:13 AM

Of course it's not a particularly well-made or good faith argument, but Othello and Shylock aren't particularly good examples for the argument "why white actors should be able to play any role". One because they are debatably racial caricatures (when I say "debatably" I mean that people have been debating this for hundreds of years), but also because while there were some Africans and Jews in Shakespeare's England, there weren't any acting at the Globe. At least as far as I know. Which is not the situation with contemporary casting.

And honestly was not the situation when Olivier or Hopkins played Othello either.

But either way, you can see how stupid this argument is if you asked Dreyfuss if he has plans to play Frederick Douglass.

On the racial caricatures thing, it did strike me that it would make a certain amount of sense for an edgy production of Othello to get at the uncomfortable racial politics by having a white actor playing Othello in Blackface. I was thinking of this based on this discussion by Shakespeare scholar Ian Smith about how the infamous handkerchief has allusions to the actor applying Blackface.

The other Shakespeare thing Dreyfuss made me think of was Vincent Price's Theatre of Blood, where his character is a ludicrously hammy and out-of-touch Shakespeare actor (basically Olivier but less talented and more of a traditionalist) and his Shylock costume is an offensive Jewish caricature. Let's just say we're lucky that we didn't see his Othello.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#33942: May 8th 2023 at 12:10:05 PM

[up] Did you know there was a production of Othello where Patrick Stewart played Othello himself? He didn't do it in blackface, the production handled it by casting everyone else with black people. Some of the reviews at the time had big Shakespeare fans saying how uncomfortable the play made them and they hadn't really noticed the racial politics at play in it before. Which is its own problem.

Casting everyone except Othello with black people is a weird angle to take, but it's a valid one. And the thing is, no one fucking does completely accurate Shakespearean acting anymore. If you have a theatre company that's fine casting women, you do not cast white people to act in blackface, full stop.

I also want to note the reason why Othello and Shylock are the go-to examples for people being allowed to "play any role" is because they're the only examples. They're fictional characters who were never intended to be played by people of the right ethnicity and anything else you could point to is either offensive or stupid as an example. They're the exceptions that prove the rule and these days, they shouldn't be exceptions because there's no reason for them to be. There's nothing about Othello that means he's best played by a white man and there's nothing about Shylock that means he must be played by a gentile.

Edited by Zendervai on May 8th 2023 at 3:16:28 PM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#33943: May 8th 2023 at 12:20:16 PM

Very well-put.

Incidentally, kind of ironically, but Olivier's Shylock was famously sympathetic and understated and he made an effort to reflect speech patterns and mannerisms of British Jews.

Similarly, Jonathan Pryce has played Shylock as well as other Jewish characters - he has a rather specific typecasting of playing (sometimes morally gray) religious/pious characters. And has similarly made effort at verisimilitude. But somehow he's also the same guy who did yellowface in Miss Saigon.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#33944: May 8th 2023 at 2:08:53 PM

@Zendervai “but when he goes for a blackface role from 60 years ago where the consensus at the time was “eh, Olivier is fine in this role, but he’s kinda phoning it in” as his example, it’s really, really hard to see it as anything but him going “but why blackface bad though?” Like, why is that the example he had in his pocket?

Because apparently, that phoned-in performance was so brilliant to him as to stick in his mind even to this day. And…I think he wants to play as a black man himself someday?

"And he did it in blackface. And he played a black man brilliantly. Am I being told that I will never have a chance to play a Black man?"

That’s the impression I got from that part: “Oliver was the shit and it made me want to play as a black man someday. Don’t deny me MY DREAM!”

I’m getting flashbacks to Scarlett Johansson making the same argument about “it’s all art, just playing pretend”, though I can’t remember if it was for “Ghost in the Shell” or some other movie in the late 2010s.

I’m starting to think we were rooting for the wrong people in that movie. That shark should have eaten him.

Also, can I ask what “diversity rules” are we talking about? Are these official guidelines for the film industry?

Edited by fredhot16 on May 8th 2023 at 2:17:44 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#33945: May 8th 2023 at 2:15:58 PM

Othello was pretty Fair for Its Day when you view him in context. I mean, he is a high ranking, well respected general. And yes, it ends in his death, but that was pretty much mandatory for a tragedy, and I'm not sure Othello would have worked nearly as well as a comedy.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#33946: May 8th 2023 at 2:24:26 PM

[up][up] She brought that up in conjunction to a biopic about a trans man where she was cast as the lead guy. It set off a discussion about how Hollywood insists on casting trans people with actors of the wrong gender and are a lot more invested in making the character look a lot more convincing before transitioning.

[up] Yeah, but casting him in blackface now is racist as shit. It's taking one of the most classic black roles there is, looking at black people, and going "no, you don't get to have this." Also, no one was really talking about the character, just the optics of casting a black person with a white actor in blackface.

Here's an article that talks about the rules. Basically, a lot of diversity is being mandated. Dreyfuss seems to be taking umbrage to the "at least 30% of the cast must be minorities" thing, but that's not actually mandatory. If a movie has a really diverse behind the scenes crew and a really diverse marketing crew, that fulfills the requirements.

Edited by Zendervai on May 8th 2023 at 5:28:16 AM

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#33947: May 8th 2023 at 2:28:26 PM

@Zendervai “Also, no one was really talking about the character, just the optics of casting a black person with a white actor in blackface.”

In fairness, I have to point this out.

Hodor 2: “Of course it's not a particularly well-made or good faith argument, but Othello and Shylock aren't particularly good examples for the argument "why white actors should be able to play any role". One because they are debatably racial caricatures (when I say "debatably" I mean that people have been debating this for hundreds of years), but also because while there were some Africans and Jews in Shakespeare's England, there weren't any acting at the Globe. At least as far as I know. Which is not the situation with contemporary casting.”

So, the content of the character was briefly mentioned in this convo. Red ain’t saying something to something nobody else was saying here, which I think Red might be glad to hear.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#33948: May 8th 2023 at 2:43:39 PM

That sounded clearer in my head than the way I wrote it.

Tl; dr, Othello is a (deliberately) bad example of a white person playing a Black character because he's a fictional character that was originally played by a white person in Blackface.

That would not be the case with any historical or most fictional Black people.

But yeah, I think Redmess was responding to my post when discussing Othello as being Fair for Its Day.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#33949: May 8th 2023 at 2:55:54 PM

Yeah, I was, and if he is a racial caricature, only a mild one. He's certainly no minstrel show caricature.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#33950: May 9th 2023 at 6:57:27 AM

Asked to Delete References to Racism From Her Book, an Author Refused

It was the most personal story that Maggie Tokuda-Hall had ever written: the tale of how her grandparents met and fell in love at an incarceration camp in Idaho that held Japanese Americans during World War II.

The book, called “Love in the Library,” is aimed at 6- to 9-year-olds. Published last year by a small children’s publisher, Candlewick Press, it drew glowing reviews, but sales were modest. So Tokuda-Hall was thrilled when Scholastic, a publishing giant that distributes books and resources in 90 percent of schools, said last month it wanted to license her book for use in classrooms.

When Tokuda-Hall read the details of the offer, she felt deflated — then outraged. Scholastic wanted her to delete references to racism in America from her author’s note, in which she addresses readers directly. The decision was wrenching, Tokuda-Hall said, but she turned Scholastic down and went public, describing her predicament in a blog post and a Twitter post that drew more than five million views.

Tokuda-Hall’s revelations sparked an outcry among children’s book authors and brought intense scrutiny to the editorial process of the world’s largest children’s publisher. The blowup came at a time when culture wars are fueling efforts to ban books in schools — particularly books on race or sexuality — and raising questions about whether already published works should be re-edited to remove potentially offensive content.


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