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Diversity and Representation in Media

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A thread for discussing representation and diversity in all kinds of media. This covers creators and casting decisions as well as characters and in-universe discussions.

Historical works and decisions are in-scope as well, not just recent news.

Please put any spoilers behind tags and clearly state which work(s) they apply to.

    Original OP 
For discussing any racial, gender, and orientation misdoings happening across various movies and the film industry today.

This week, producer Ross Putnam started a Twitter account called "femscriptintros", where he puts up examples of how women are introduced in the screenplays he's read. And nearly all of sound like terrible porn or are too concerned with emphasizing said lady is beautiful despite whatever traits she may have. Here's a Take Two podcast made today where he talks about it.


(Edited April 19 2024 to add mod pinned post)

Edited by Mrph1 on Apr 19th 2024 at 11:45:51 AM

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#301: Apr 9th 2016 at 5:29:32 PM

Too pretty to be talented seems more like a pro wrestling casting call than a Hollywood one, and even that's the result of decades worth of conditioning (ie, models, body builders and actors who failed at the sport since the 80s)

But to give Theron the benefit of the doubt, having not read the article myself, that could be according to what role she is going for. If she was trying to play a pro wrestler or something, she might get turned away for being too pretty. She might not want roles that call for "pretty woman". She might want more roles for "broken nose, nose ring, nose tattoos woman".

Buldogue's lawyer
Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#302: Apr 9th 2016 at 6:22:04 PM

[up][up] Christ Eagal. I like the sound of that. wink

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#303: Apr 10th 2016 at 4:03:19 AM

You have a Ph D? What was it on?

Not yet, I should have one come December. It is about human-wildlife conflicts, and it includes bits of anthropology/sociology, and an important part of the discussion is how to combine qualitative and quantitative approaches when analyzing a conflict.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#304: Apr 10th 2016 at 7:49:09 PM

That's a pretty cool area of research. Feel free to link it to us in some manner once it's completed.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#305: Apr 10th 2016 at 7:50:46 PM

—> Study opens by complaining about the white devil.

If you're going to develop an odd persecution complex anytime anyone wants to talk about diversity, I have no idea why you're still coming into this thread.

[up][up]That's very cool.

edited 10th Apr '16 7:54:59 PM by comicwriter

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#306: Apr 10th 2016 at 8:14:58 PM

If she was trying to play a pro wrestler or something

I kinda wanna see that movie now.

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#307: Apr 11th 2016 at 10:08:07 AM

[up][up][up] I linked it in the Environmentalism OTC thread, because it is its rightful place - although I saw some PhDs that were studying series or movies and they all looked incredibly interesting.

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#309: Apr 14th 2016 at 2:03:55 PM

Old news about "Ghost in the Shell", but still stinging.

And now for something more diverse this week, and Scar Jo's in it too.

What makes it really relevant is the way in which screenwriter Justin Marks unfurls the story, turning The Jungle Book into a timely, animal-led parable about equality, diversity and immigration (Disney's second of the year, after Zootopia). With the Syrian refugee crisis upon us and a globally-divisive American election nearing, you can't help but take this story's call for peace among many varied jungle species as a potent metaphor for 'right now'. And Shere Khan, the tiger who's suspicious to the point of supervillainy at the presence of an interloper, is something like the doomsaying Donald Trump figure. The film has a more kid-friendly way of putting its message, of course: Can't we all just get along?

I'll probably check it out later this week. And Zootopia was great too.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#311: Apr 14th 2016 at 2:35:29 PM

Wait are they really going to keep her name the same? Jesus christ.

Even if the whitewashing wasn't actually a problem (and it definitely is) it's going to cause massive Fridge Logic.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#312: Apr 14th 2016 at 2:48:50 PM

To the best of my knowledge, so far we don't know whether or not she's going to have the same name. She's being referred to as just "The Major" at this point. I've said it before and I'll say it again - if they actually have Johansson playing a character named Motoko Kusanagi, I am going to be...very displeased. Even more so than I already am. Here's blogger Phil Yu's post about the whole thing.

While I'm at it, here's his post about the recent Doctor Strange trailer, featuring bald Tilda Swinton teaching Benedict Cumberbatch all about Magic Asian Skills.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#313: Apr 14th 2016 at 3:07:48 PM

Although it's a small point in Marvel's favor that they tried to avoid the old Asian master stereotype by casting Swinton who's said to play the role as "neutral", it seems to fall more afoul of the perception that "white people represent all races while POC only represent themselves" like the screenwriter of Ridley Scott's "Noah" once claimed.

*On Ghost in the Shell*: I wonder what Rinko Kikuchi's up to as of late.

*Looks up linked AAM blog*: ...what the heck New York Times??

edited 14th Apr '16 3:10:18 PM by Tuckerscreator

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#314: Apr 14th 2016 at 3:18:00 PM

... I'm not really seeing what's so bad about it other than that it's just not that clever. I don't think the author's genuinely upset that there's so much variety to Chinese food or believes it's too complicated for him at all.

edited 14th Apr '16 3:21:53 PM by AlleyOop

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#315: Apr 14th 2016 at 3:27:35 PM

Someone in the MCU thread pointed out that Swinton's casting would be bearable (still something that should be discussed, but bearable) if they used this as an opportunity to shed the Ancient One of the tired faux-Orientalist mysticism. Instead we're keeping all the fake Asian mysticism, and erasing actual Asians for bonus points. It's the worst of both worlds.

And yeah, definitely not buying into the whole "she's playing the role as neutral, so it's not racist" thing. Look at the imagery in that trailer! Asian temples, monastic robes, martial arts, all the usual trappings. That's about as far from neutral as you can get.

Marvel seems to think the controversy is about the character getting gender-flipped (or maybe they're just trying to deflect away from the Race Lift), but it's really not. I'm completely fine with the character being made into a woman - Lord knows the MCU needs more female characters in it. What I love here is how they seem to be saying "we cast Tilda Swinton instead of an Asian person because we wanted the Ancient One to be female." Y'know, Marvel, there are Asian women in the world.

Back on Ghost in the Shell, this article specifically mentions Rinko Kikuchi as a far more suitable candidate for the role. I haven't been following the movie (the whitewashing pretty much automatically makes me stop giving a shit), so I don't know if she's been mentioned a lot with regards to the film, but from what I know of her she would definitely be a better (read: less tacitly racist) choice.

And that New York Times poem...yeah, that was somewhat unfortunate. I can at least recommend following the AAM blog - it's good stuff.

edited 14th Apr '16 3:27:49 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#316: Apr 14th 2016 at 3:34:06 PM

Rinko Kinkuchi seems to have been the most popular choice for the role with most people I've spoken to, yes.

It's disappointing that Hollywood thinks they need to "westernize" Ghost in the Shell in order to sell this to audiences. Obviously I have nothing against Johansson and have enjoyed her in several films, but this was just a poor decision.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#317: Apr 14th 2016 at 3:43:38 PM

Ghost in the Shell is one of the most iconic anime series in the Western world along with Akira. It has built in name brand appeal. It's like trying Race Lift Miyazaki movies. If they really think they need to whitewash anyone then they're not only hopelessly out of touch with general society but also have zero confidence in their own work, not to mention they're going to piss off any actual fans of the work who would care to see it in the first place if they've already changed it so much right there.

[up][up][up] I feel like even if they kept everything about the Ancient One the exact same, if they cast a woman to play the character that would've already done away with most of the problems with the role, given patriarchalism is often a big part of Magical Asian stereotyping.

edited 14th Apr '16 3:46:20 PM by AlleyOop

FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#318: Apr 14th 2016 at 3:49:56 PM

the thing about Ghost in the Shell to me is.... the characters are drawn as if they are westerners, this isn't like taking Egyptian mythology and making everyone white, to me this is keeping to the artwork

advancing the front into TV Tropes
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#319: Apr 14th 2016 at 3:52:01 PM

Yeah. I think it would have been potentially really neat if the Ancient One was a wise Asian woman. Asian women usually only get to be exotic love interests, geishas (slash exotic love interests), or scary old dragon ladies. Having an Asian woman be a genuine mentor figure and protagonist would have been very nice to see. Instead, we get...this.

[up] That's really due to the art style more than anything else. I mean, the main character's name is Motoko Kusanagi. The story is set in Japan. They've cast Japanese actors as numerous other characters, so the "staying true to the art style" thing doesn't hold any water for me. The characters are Japanese.

edited 14th Apr '16 3:53:45 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#320: Apr 14th 2016 at 3:52:30 PM

Those westerners who live and work in Japan, speak Japanese, and have Japanese names.

[up][up][up][up][up]Pretty much. The crappy Strange TV movie similarly whitewashed the character, but at least somewhat justified it by having the entire setting for the origin changed to New York and removing all the Asian elements (except Wong as his sidekick). If they had to make the Ancient One a British woman then they should have done that.

edited 14th Apr '16 4:01:54 PM by comicwriter

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#321: Apr 14th 2016 at 3:52:37 PM

[up][up][up]The thing is a lot of anime characters are drawn like that anyways, it doesn't necessarily make them less japanese. You get shows and manga with more realistic art and more decidedly asian looking pepople but those are rare. if nothing else, Motoko Kusanagi is a japanese name.

To be quite honest, I would have expected Japan to have made their own GITS movie by this point since it's one of those series that might be doable on a smaller budget with practical effects and the like, but that's a completely different tangent.

edited 14th Apr '16 3:55:35 PM by wehrmacht

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#322: Apr 14th 2016 at 3:56:44 PM

There's actually a trope for the tendency for manga/anime characters to appear white (to Westerners, at least). The name of it escapes me at the moment, but the point is that it's basically just an aesthetic thing.

And from looking at pictures of Kusanagi, she really doesn't look any more white to me than she does Asian. I don't know about you, but I don't know anyone with naturally purple hair. Nobody in real life actually looks how anime characters look.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#324: Apr 14th 2016 at 4:04:14 PM

[up] Dammit, just beat me to it.

General rule of anime: assume all characters are Japanese unless you have explicit reason not to.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#325: Apr 14th 2016 at 4:09:43 PM

That's the one, thank you.

So yeah, it's mainly an aesthetic choice. Partly to make characters more individually distinctive on a visual level.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."

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