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Diversity and Representation in Media

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A thread for discussing representation and diversity in all kinds of media. This covers creators and casting decisions as well as characters and in-universe discussions.

Historical works and decisions are in-scope as well, not just recent news.

Please put any spoilers behind tags and clearly state which work(s) they apply to.

    Original OP 
For discussing any racial, gender, and orientation misdoings happening across various movies and the film industry today.

This week, producer Ross Putnam started a Twitter account called "femscriptintros", where he puts up examples of how women are introduced in the screenplays he's read. And nearly all of sound like terrible porn or are too concerned with emphasizing said lady is beautiful despite whatever traits she may have. Here's a Take Two podcast made today where he talks about it.


(Edited April 19 2024 to add mod pinned post)

Edited by Mrph1 on Apr 19th 2024 at 11:45:51 AM

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#27601: Mar 18th 2021 at 5:16:35 AM

[up]Not surprising. I imagine they might find it patronizing, to put it mildly. And no one likes that.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#27602: Mar 18th 2021 at 6:35:05 AM

All this talk of Orientalism in comic book works and Daredevil only gets a passing mention?

Dare-"the emotional conflict of this season is whether I may kill a man even though I've killed an Asian man and it weighed on my soul exactly zero"-devil?

Dare-"ninjas and Dragon Lady-temptress and magical Inscrutable Oriental"-devil?

Dare-"The Hand are all evil except for the white guy being forced into it"-devil?

Seriously, it's the only time I actually thought they might be malicious instead of just tone-deaf. Compared to DD, The Wolverine is a venerating tome made out of respect.

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Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#27603: Mar 18th 2021 at 6:55:36 AM

Guess what those Daredevil and Wolverine comics have in common? Frank Miller.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#27604: Mar 18th 2021 at 6:56:42 AM

Well, I'm referring to the 2015 Netflix series so... yeah.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#27605: Mar 18th 2021 at 6:59:58 AM

The Netflix series had the bad combo of Frank Miller (the portrayal of the Hand is actually very close to how Miller portrayed them) and then-tv-head Jeph Loeb, who had his own accusations of flagrant anti-Asian bigotry.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#27606: Mar 18th 2021 at 7:33:02 AM

@Larkmarn I mentioned the Hand a page ago. And in fairness, plenty was said about Netflix Daredevil's Orientalism when it came out.

Ironically

Dare-"the emotional conflict of this season is whether I may kill a man even though I've killed an Asian man and it weighed on my soul exactly zero"-devil?

Dare-"ninjas and Dragon Lady-temptress and magical Inscrutable Oriental"-devil?

Can't even be laid at the feet of the comics.

Matt doesn't kill Nobu in the comics (I think Bullseye is the only person he's killed and even then he was possessed) and Elektra isn't a Dragon Lady in the comics because she's a white Greek woman not a half-Asian woman. Basically, they tried to be more progressive than 80s Frank Miller and accidentally ended up being more racist.

But yeah, the show unfortunately plays the Orientalism of Miller's works unfortunately straight.

It's funny because I've seen some call Daredevil in general "Batman done right". He has the echo location power of a bat and instead of being a rich, white billionaire he's a Working-Class Hero who often defends people who can't afford high price lawyers. You'd think Daredevil writers would step better than this.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#27607: Mar 18th 2021 at 11:02:32 AM

As someone who probably has aspergers one of my favorite autistic/aspergers characters is Abed from Community. I find him very compelling. That Everything's Gonna Be Okay looks interesting as well.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#27608: Mar 18th 2021 at 11:56:37 AM

Ambar said they should have made Shangri La Avalon instead or something like that.

As for Daredevil....Peter Shinikoda said that the writers actually crafted a nuanced backstory and Jeph Loeb told them to ignore it because "no one cares about Asians."

From what I heard Iron Fist Season 2 was a step up in that Davos is a much more nuanced antagonist.

Funny thing is when I was imagining how I'd do it I imagined two easy fixes. First, make Stick Asian. Secondly, actually dig into the Hand's backstory. I imagined them as having been a noble group that fought oppression, but ultimately turned to a demon called the Beast, which corrupted them and made them more vicious. Stick would have been a former member who quit out of disgust for what they were becoming.

Edited by LordYAM on Mar 18th 2021 at 11:58:49 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#27609: Mar 18th 2021 at 12:07:04 PM

Iron fist season 2 is like the ultimate improvement from what I've heard which means it's kinda a shame they cancelled it just after they'd begun to fix the issues.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#27610: Mar 18th 2021 at 12:27:34 PM

[up][up] I'm not going to put words in Ambar's mouth but I assume due to having a similar viewpoint that he was asking that, if they were going to Race Lift the Ancient One to "Celtic", then at least go all the way and make it a Cultural Translation so that it's at least internally consistent. Since what they actually did was not just whitewashing but also more than a little cultural appropriation.

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#27611: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:51:29 PM

Honestly, if they just made Strange Asian, most complaints would vanish.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#27612: Mar 18th 2021 at 2:57:46 PM

The astounding thing about Daredevil 2015 is that the show got worse as it went on. Like the first season was problematic. The second season seemed like it was intentionally written to make sure no one accidentally thinks that Asians are people.

Like Matt not caring about killing Nobu? Not an issue in the first season since technically he left him for dead and Kingpin finished him off after DD left. I just assumed he assumed Nobu survived.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut S2 confirms that DD thought Nobu was dead and had no idea Kingpin intervened. So he just plain assumed that he killed Nobu and it didn't affect him in the slightest.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#27613: Mar 18th 2021 at 5:34:13 PM

It makes you wonder why they even adapted the Hand at all given they are the least liked part of the show. Season 3, in which they are absent, had the least amount of criticisms from what I remember and Ray Nadeem is a vast improvement over any Asian character from the past two seasons.

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#27614: Mar 18th 2021 at 7:14:05 PM

[up][up] Peter Shinokoda (Nobu's actor) confirmed that the WRITERS actually wanted to give Nobu an in depth backstory, but that Jeph Loeb axed it because he didn't think audiences care about Asians, so that's down to the producer being an idiot and a racist.

If the hand had been given more depth and explanation I think they could have worked (hell I came up with a backstory that they started out as heroes but fell to the dark side when they turned to a demon called the beast for help out of desperation and just became the Beast's pawns. I would have replaced Stick with Izu, another character from the comic, and have him leave the organization because he realized what they were becoming.)

At the time I saw Season 1 I assumed it was because the killing occurred in the heat of battle, which is different from tracking down a guy with intent to kill.

Edited by LordYAM on Mar 18th 2021 at 7:20:15 AM

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#27615: Mar 19th 2021 at 4:40:46 PM

Doesn't Murdock say, after Nobu, "I've never killed anyone"?

Also, when has Murdock shown that killing in a fight is a-O.K with him, personally?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#27616: Mar 19th 2021 at 4:42:06 PM

Well Nobu is Asian so I guess he's cool making that expectation.....

(At least according to the writers)

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#27617: Mar 19th 2021 at 5:08:33 PM

[up][up] In the first season, yes. That's why everyone was assuming that Matt just didn't know Nobu was dead—and Nobu was alive when he left, Kingpin was the one who finished him off. But when Nobu returned in season two, Matt explicitly says he thought he was dead.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#27618: Mar 19th 2021 at 9:54:20 PM

For those who are familiar with it, how would you say the Ninja Turtles franchise has handled Asian representation. I ask in part, because the Foot Clan, the main villain faction, were based on the Hand.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#27619: Mar 19th 2021 at 9:57:38 PM

I'm not familiar with every Turtle series but depending on the continuity, Splinter falls into the "POC who spends the majority of the time in a non-human form" (in the ones where he was originally a japanese man and not a rat raised by one).

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#27620: Mar 19th 2021 at 10:23:28 PM

I remember someone on Reddit made a short essay about how they felt the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles film worked as an allegory for the struggles of growing up in an immigrant family.

I'm Korean but I was born in Canada. My entire life, I've felt caught between my family's culture and the Canadian culture I lived in. There was always a constant push and pull between opposing values, traditions, behaviors, language, food, etc. My family didn't want us to lose our heritage, but as a kid/teen, I just wanted to fit in with my Canadian friends. That made it hard to find an identity. Who I was with my family wasn't always who I was with my friends. Finding that balance has been a life-long challenge, and I don't think I've found it yet.

But rewatching TMNT as a 33 year old, I instantly recognized that same struggle in the Turtles. The Turtles are caught between the culture that Splinter raised them in, and the American culture they live in. It's represented as two different worlds, and Splinter's worry that the outside world could never accept the turtles for who they are echoes the concerns my own parents had about me and my brothers being able to fit in with friends that grew up in Canada.

The Turtles are caught in the middle - one the one hand they have their family, on the other, they have a burning (and understandable) desire to be regular teenagers that are part of the world outside the sewers. They want to have fun, meet people, skateboard, and eat pizza. But it's not that simple for them. Their identity is not as easy to establish because of the two cultures that define it. I know that feeling all too well. Remember the scene when Casey Jones and Raph first meet? When Casey leaves, he calls Raph a freak and Raph explodes. It's clear that word cut deep with Raph because he's hyper aware of just how different he is than everyone else around him. When I was called "chink" as a kid, it hurt the same way. Those are moments when it's made abundantly clear that you are seen as different.

Brandon Deadly Vu! from Between Thanksgiving and Christmas (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#27622: Mar 20th 2021 at 2:32:18 AM

[up][up] Interesting. Reading the article it sounds more like a colorism issue not necessarily whitewashing. Which still comes with its own issues, of course.

Despite criticism of the film being a “white horse girl movie,” others clarified that the protagonist is half Mexican. Still, some said the depiction of her as Mexican was generic.

“They decided to make her slightly brown and to wear an embroidered shirt as a very lame and generic character design,” one user tweeted. “Even IF they wanted to make her Mexican, she could have at least been indigenous.”

That there was even a new Spirit movie let alone a t.v. series based on it is news to me.

Edited by windleopard on Mar 20th 2021 at 2:37:07 AM

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#27623: Mar 20th 2021 at 6:24:30 AM

[up]Spirit (and to a lesser extent the Fast and the Furious spinoff) are surprisingly popular for Dreamworks. Spirit toys are actually a huge money maker for Mattel.

It’s always the ones that don’t get a ton of attention by adults that seem to do well with kids.

Akirakan Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27624: Mar 20th 2021 at 6:44:35 AM

I had heard criticism of the TV series for completely throwing away the themes of the movie. It's exactly that, a series about a girl and her horse, when the entire point of the movie was that Spirit was a free spirit. As meanwhile the original movie was anti-colonization, in the series Spirit lives in a colonized society.

Probably one of the most baffling things is the heavy use of trains in it. Nevermind that one of the big emotional moments from the movie is when he frees himself and the rest of the horses from being forced to build a railroad.

Edited by Akirakan on Mar 20th 2021 at 8:45:08 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#27625: Mar 20th 2021 at 7:16:34 AM

[up] Sounds similar to the problems of those direct-to-video Disney sequels.


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