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Like I said, you could ax all the non-Genre Savvy examples of Dangerously Genre Savvy and move all the remaining examples to Genre Savvy and none of the examples would really loose their meaning. I was hard-pressed to find one correct example on the amime sub-page and I doubt the other folders are that much different.
I'd leave that until I'm done cleaning up Genre Savvy though as that trope is way more prevalent.
I'm seeing a lot of misuse for the tropes supposedly related to Genre Savvy as well. Like this example from the Quantum Leap page:
Some of those may describe a Fish out of Water, but there's nothing in there about thinking in terms of tropes and being wrong.
Any other thoughts on this? It looks like the misuse for Genre Savvy has definitely bled over to the sister tropes Genre Blind and Wrong Genre Savvy.
A small sampling from the WrongGenreSavvy.Film subpage:
That just means he fills an unconventional narrative role, there's no indication that he's (Wrong) Genre Savvy in any way.
Jack Burton is certainly a Decoy Protagonist, but does he ever treat his surroundings like a story? No.
Again, is this ever commented on that the characters think they're playing out archetypal roles?
That's tricky because the example invokes real life details for something that is never commented on in-universe. I'd call it shoehorning.
Agreed on all counts. The Genre Savvy family of tropes is one of the most misused on the wiki. As a rule of thumb, if you think you're seeing misuse, you're probably right and should go ahead and correct it.
One problem I have noticed with a lot of the misused entries beyond the "This character is so smart! Genre Savvy woot!" is what I think can best be described as troper projection. Namely, for some reason many tropers have a tendency to describe fictional characters as far more self-aware than they are actually portrayed. Hence the frequent shoehorns like:
A big red flag in Wrong Genre Savvy entries is a sentence along the lines of "[character] seems to think they're in [genre]."
Do they specifically refer to works of that genre, e.g. "in a detective novel, the gumshoe always catches the crook by doing this"? If the answer is "no," then it's probably shoehorning / projection.
edited 29th Jul '16 10:05:49 AM by HighCrate
A bit of necromancing, but this seemed to be the place to ask. I'm looking at Summer Genre Savvy entries in Podcast.Red Panda Adventures and I'm thinking none of them seem to fit. I wanted to get a general opinion here before I do any deleting since the entry is sizable.
The main reason I'm thinking they don't work is because I understand genre savvy as being savvy of a genre, not savvy within a genre. Put another way these guys come by their knowledge by being a superhero story, not by reading them.
Sorry to have not caught this one. No, none of those examples display Genre savvy. Intelligence, yes, knowledge of tropes, yes, recognition of patterns, yes. That that knowledge came from familiarity with fiction within the story, no.
That's what I figured. Just it's a big enough deletion I wanted to hedge my bets a bit first. As I say, my usual litmus is whether a character is savvy of a genre vs savvy within a genre, or of they get the latter due to the former
Doing some more wick cleaning. Based on previous posts in this thread, this is what's been done so far:
Completed crosswicks: A-D (Morgenthaler, 16.01.02), A (Obsidianfire, 16.03.30), B (Obsidianfire, 16.03.17), X-Y (Obsidianfire, 16.03.16), Z (Wyldchyld, 16.01.05).
Although most of that cleanup was over a year ago so more bad entries are sure to have popped up even in the "cleaned" areas. I guess that's why this is filed under "perpetual."
I gave the Es a thorough going-through today.
edited 21st May '17 2:22:20 PM by HighCrate
High Crate, why did you delete Genre Savvy from Adventurers! again?
For reference, the full entry was:
From which I deleted the "Genre Savvy" from the last line. If everything really is trying to kill the character in question, and there really is a chance that the lamp might be a monster, and he knows this, not because he's read books or watched movies in which lamps turn out to be evil monsters but because similar things have happened to him personally, then he's Taught by Experience, not Genre Savvy. Classic misuse of the sort that this thread is intended to purge.
edited 21st May '17 2:57:40 PM by HighCrate
That's... a less appropriate trope for this case. Taught by Experience doesn't really apply to stories like this.
edited 21st May '17 5:01:43 PM by Prfnoff
However, Genre Savvy specifically requires that the character recognize the situation because of other works of fiction he's familiar with. Karn may be that, but nothing in the example even suggests it. It may be that he's experienced it. It may be that he's been warned about it by other characters. It may be that he's paranoid., properly or otherwise.
It was entirely correct that Genre Savvy be removed there.
edited 21st May '17 5:48:17 PM by Madrugada
Finished cleaning the "Fa" and "Fe" wicks. Moving on to "Fi".
As there are over 9000 of these things yet to go, any amount of help would be appreciated.
edited 24th May '17 3:54:58 PM by HighCrate
Saying you're "entirely correct" doesn't mean you're entirely convincing. Karn is strongly implied in many Adventurers! strips to act the way he does because he's familiar with other RPG Mechanics Verses, but it's never quite acknowledged in-universe.
I also see you made an unlinked reference to the trope Properly Paranoid, which has a somewhat confusing Example as a Thesis description.
"It's never quite acknowledged in-universe" — That's the problem with that entry. Proper use of the trope Genre Savvy requires that it be acknowledged In-universe. Otherwise every character who isn't a complete idiot "could maybe", or "could be assumed to" fit. It's not enough that the character knows what to do or not to do, it also requires that they (or someone else in the work) lampshades that they know because they consume fiction.
And if' I'd meant to rely on the Trope Properly Paranoid, I'd have linked it.
edited 27th May '17 6:02:28 PM by Madrugada
Edit: Forget it. I apologize for not knowing more about the tropes.
edited 29th May '17 4:16:22 PM by Tomodachi
This entry appears on Characters.Final Fantasy XII:
There might be a valid example in here, but it's hard to tell. It claims that Balthier leans on the fourth wall without supporting that assertion with specific details. That the believes a story about an Evil Twin and anticipates boobytraps and monsters is meaningless without knowing where that knowledge comes from. The fact that he refers to himself as "the leading man" and leans on the Plot Armor trope is what makes me think this entry might be on to something; however, the last line claims that he's Wrong Genre Savvy, which 1.) if true should get its own entry instead of a sentence here and 2.) does not give sufficient context to tell if it's the case. There's no indication here that he's attempting to apply the conventions of a different genre to his own situation; being mistaken about his own role in the story would not make him Wrong Genre Savvy.
As written, the entry doesn't belong, but it might be salvageable by someone more knowledgeable about FFXII than I am.
He is a genius, son of a scholar, noble and made a Judge at the age of only 16. A lot of what he talks about is relating fiction and how some of what was thought fiction is reality.
In Revenant Wings its hinted that the treasure he was after at the start was something he read in a book.
And 'I am the leading man" I think would be correct since he equates the situation to more of a Phantom Thief story instead of in the middle of a war epic.
edited 31st May '17 2:41:50 PM by Memers
"He is a genius, son of a scholar, noble and made a Judge at the age of only 16."
None of that has anything to do with the Genre Savvy trope and should be omitted.
"A lot of what he talks about is relating fiction and how some of what was thought fiction is reality."
That sounds more promising. Can this be expanded and supported with specific details?
"In Revenant Wings its hinted that the treasure he was after at the start was something he read in a book."
Was the book a work of genre fiction? Did he generalize the rules and tropes of that genre and apply it to his own situation? Ex: "In my pirate novels, they always make an X mark where they bury the treasure, therefore the treasure is buried here!"
"And 'I am the leading man" I think would be correct since he equates the situation to more of a Phantom Thief story instead of in the middle of a war epic."
If that's the case, then a Wrong Genre Savvy entry could be written, but it would have to explain what Phantom Thief tropes he thinks applies that don't and where his knowledge of those tropes come from, and what war epic tropes he doesn't know apply that do. I see a lot of WGS entries that are just, "Thinks he's in [genre], but he's actually in [other genre]," and that's a Zero Context Example.
edited 31st May '17 3:38:55 PM by HighCrate
Also, I finished the Fi wicks and am moving on to Fl.
The FFXII example definitely sounds closer to Wrong Genre Savvy, but it also seems a bit too vague about what kind of knowledge he's working off of.
The line about "you know what they say about the leading man; he never dies." — "they say" means that he's talking about fiction. So he's Genre Savvy, but whether he's Wrong Genre Savvy is not clear. Wrong Genre Savvy says it applies "Even if you're correct about being in a story, it's possible for you to guess wrong about your role in the story, the genre of the story, or where on the various sliding scales your story is. Any way you spin it, it's still a common way of subverting Genre Savviness. "
If he thinks he's the leading man but he's a sidekick, he's right genre/wrong role WGS. If he's wrong about the genre, he's still WGS.
edited 31st May '17 4:25:19 PM by Madrugada
So far we seem agreed that Balthier is very likely either Genre Savvy or Wrong Genre Savvy— potentially both— but nobody here seems to have enough knowledge of the game's story to write a cogent entry. I'm going to give it another 24 hours and then comment out the entry, since the way it's written now is lacking in context no matter how you slice it.
Also, finished with the "Fl" wicks and moving on to the "Fo"s. Any help would be appreciated.
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How well does it match the trope?