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Deadlock Clock: Sep 1st 2020 at 11:59:00 PM
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#51: Jan 31st 2016 at 2:21:43 PM

That I disagree with, I think it needs the contact. The Heavy needs to do stuff like literally chase and shoot at the heroes, kidnap and torture one, bring the heroes to the big bad, have the duel with the hero, trap the heroes then gloat. Bad guy stuff like that.

Not being present but manipulating the situation like The Wicked Witch, Lord Of The Rings' Saruman or Ni No Kuni's White Witch is something different.

edited 31st Jan '16 2:22:50 PM by Memers

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#52: Jan 31st 2016 at 2:38:16 PM

Outside of Memers posting here, I can't find anything about it needing contact, so I would think it wouldn't.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#53: Jan 31st 2016 at 3:14:36 PM

[up][up] Sauron and Saruman's manipulations of the situation are offscreen. There was an onscreen manipulation by Saruman added to the Peter Jackson version of the trilogy; crossing over the mountains.

The Witch of the West, in contrast, is shown causing each problem, and sometimes physically present with the protagonists.

  • "You killed my sister!"
  • "How about a little fire, Scarecrow?"
  • "Poppies will make you sle~ep."
  • "Bring me Dorothy!"
  • "Fly, my pretties, fly!"
  • "You'll never leave, not until you give me those Ruby Slippers!"
  • "I'm melting!"
The Wiz, in contrast, doesn't have Evillene causing problems, she's just blamed for some of them.

edited 1st Feb '16 6:47:03 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#54: Feb 1st 2016 at 4:59:57 AM

I don't think it's not the interactions with the protagonist that's the important part as much as it is the play for the peanut gallery (a.k.a. audience) that's what makes it.

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shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#55: Feb 1st 2016 at 6:37:28 AM

That's better criteria. The villain must interact on screen. Not just be mentioned by other characters as the force behind them.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#56: Feb 2nd 2016 at 7:02:19 PM

How's this, then?

The Heavy is the character that provides the most conflict in the story. They're the Antagonist that creates obstacles for the Protagonist to overcome. They're who the protagonist confronts most directly and most often, effectively providing a face for the forces opposing them.

In other words, they're the antagonist with the most screen time, the one that the audience is most familiar with as a character. This is the origin of the trope name, which comes from theater terminology used as far back as the 1800s. The Heavy is a big role for an actor, sometimes the biggest role in the work, eclipsing even the main character. This means that the Heavy tends to have the most lines, and therefore the heaviest script.

In terms of story role, the Heavy can be anything from an Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain all the way up to the Big Bad, as long as they're the ones out front and center, personally opposing the heroes rather than staying in the shadows and working in the background. The Heavy is often The Dragon, as keeping the Big Bad out of the limelight makes them more mysterious, and thus scarier; this also allows for a Non-Action Big Bad, with the Heavy providing the muscle. However, the Heavy is an antagonist trope, not a villain trope, so they can be a Hero Antagonist standing in the way of a Villain Protagonist just as easily.

Not to be confused with the band of the same name, or the Heavy Weapons Guy.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#58: Jul 31st 2016 at 9:42:44 PM

I noticed two examples that have conflicting ideas of what this trope is.

  • Snowpiercer: Neither Wilford nor Mason are fighters so Franco serves as the main physical threat of the movie.

This says nothing about him driving the plot.

  • G.I. Joe Film Series: In Retaliation, while Cobra Commander is the Big Bad, Zartan is the most prominent antagonist in the film and he does more to set Cobra's evil plan in motion.

Opposite problem, describes how he drives the plot, but nothing about physical capabilities which I know are none.

edited 2nd Aug '16 6:52:19 AM by randomtroper89

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#59: Aug 1st 2016 at 10:44:24 AM

Physical capabilities are irrelevant. They need to be physically present on the stage or in front of the camera, but they don't need to be fighters of any kind.

The first example doesn't describe the trope at all, while the second is correct.

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crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#60: Dec 28th 2016 at 6:49:25 PM

Are we ready to swap out the definition for post #56, or is there more we want to adjust? I'm satisfied with the post.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#61: Dec 28th 2016 at 7:27:52 PM

I think it might be good to start with something like: "In theatre jargon, the Heavy is..." just to emphasize the fact that this is a standard technical term, and not just one of those things we made up. That might encourage people to take a little more care when looking at the definition.

People like to feel like insiders.

Otherwise, it looks good to me.

eta: fixed typo

edited 28th Dec '16 7:28:30 PM by Xtifr

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crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#62: Jan 12th 2017 at 8:35:45 AM

The definition has been swapped out, with a few tweak like [up] suggested. Onto clean-up now?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#63: Jan 12th 2017 at 8:52:18 AM

Sure. Starred.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#64: Mar 13th 2017 at 7:42:00 AM

I feel like the wick cleaning hasn't started: there's 1,641 wicks, including over 100 for a redirect.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
kjnoren Since: Feb, 2011
#65: Aug 3rd 2017 at 2:53:51 PM

Regarding the new description, I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but there is an inconsistency in the writeup, given that direct and frequent interaction between the protagonist and the heavy isn't required:

Paragraph 1: "They're who the protagonist confronts most directly and most often"

Paragraph 2: "they're the antagonist with the most screen time, the one that the audience is most familiar with as a character"

Paragraph 3: "personally opposing the heroes"

So a proposed change:

In theatre jargon, the Heavy is the character that provides the most conflict in the story. They're the Antagonist that creates obstacles for the Protagonist to overcome. At least to the audience, they are the face of the opposition to the protagonist.

(paragraph 2 unchanged)

The Heavy is an antagonist trope, not a villain trope, so they can be a Hero Antagonist standing in the way of a Villain Protagonist just as easily as being an Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain all the way up to the Big Bad. The Heavy can act as The Dragon, as keeping the Big Bad out of the limelight makes them more mysterious, and thus scarier. That role often overlaps with a Non-Action Big Bad, where the Heavy is providing the muscle. But it is the relation of the Heavy to the audience that defines this type, not the interaction with the Protagonist.

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#66: Jan 5th 2018 at 1:24:47 PM

[up] Those suggestions look good to me.

I'll make sure to check and correct every wick to The Villain Makes the Plot tonight.

edit: while wick checking, I discovered an old TRS was responsible for the redirect.

edited 6th Jan '18 4:40:55 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#67: Jun 6th 2019 at 7:08:34 AM

Trying to touch base since it's pending final for several months. Are we done, or is there unfinished business?

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crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#68: Jun 6th 2019 at 7:55:40 AM

Probably unfinished business, as I forgot I even wrote that previous post. I'll try to focus on checking these wicks again.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#69: Jan 10th 2020 at 7:16:13 AM

I updated the description and started going through the wicks again (eliminating the redirect).

EDIT: Cleaned out the redirect (1 ghost wick) and checked all of Main/A pages.
Cleaned out the Pro Wrestling pages.

Edited by crazysamaritan on Jan 17th 2020 at 1:19:55 PM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#70: Feb 19th 2020 at 12:09:06 PM

Currently 2615 articles link to The Heavy, and I've only confirmed the accuracy of some wicks. Hopefully I can also alphabetize the main page examples.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#71: Mar 11th 2020 at 5:39:00 PM

I did another dozen or so wicks, under 2600 for now.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#72: Aug 29th 2020 at 1:53:42 AM

This has been pending work for four years. Clocking to see if anyone is actually interested in doing all the work.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#73: Sep 3rd 2020 at 2:29:07 AM

OK, evidently the answer is "nobody". Closing.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
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