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Just a Face and a Caption: The Obi Wan

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Deadlock Clock: Nov 5th 2015 at 11:59:00 PM
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#26: Oct 10th 2015 at 6:44:41 PM

That's a good point. There is trope overlap here.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#27: Oct 10th 2015 at 7:47:53 PM

@25: You have a point here! Too bad TRS is clogged up at the moment.

lexicon Since: May, 2012
#28: Oct 10th 2015 at 8:02:21 PM

Dying is not required. This is about being a man that gives wisdom to the main character. There's also Merlin.

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#29: Oct 10th 2015 at 10:59:25 PM

People think that Mentor Occupational Hazard is a requirement for The Obi-Wan especially when Obi-Wan Moment exists and so many other actual mentor tropes exist.

This trope even comes with a "Warning: this is a Death Trope; there be spoilers ahead. " so I would say that it probably is a requirement.

lexicon Since: May, 2012
#30: Oct 10th 2015 at 11:14:32 PM

Maybe it can use TRS but I don't think death is absolutely required since the pages say, "This character will almost always die so that the protagonist can learn to stand on his own two feet," and "This usually pops up with The Obi-Wan..." Even if it is a requirement it's better to show part of it than Obi-Wan standing there or nothing at all. Does it really overlap that much with other Mentors?

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#31: Oct 10th 2015 at 11:27:24 PM

There is the Mentor Archetype which seems to be the stereotypical Mentors like Obi-wan, Gandolf and Merlin but hopelessly under used.

There is Old Master, Opposed Mentors, Obsolete Mentor, an entire index of Mentors types and tropes. Renowned Selective Mentor says it overlaps with The Obi-Wan. The Obi-Wannabe is a problem though. The Obi-Wan Moment is the peaceably accepting before they die moment, leading to greatly pushing all Obiwan tropes into death tropes.

The Obi-Wan it seems is just the Mentor Arc of teaching the newbie then dying so the newbie can take up the lead of the plot, if they just leave its Relegated Mentor, we do not seem to have one where the mentor sticks around and the hero eventually becomes an equal or close to it.

If that is the case, an image of Obiwan teaching Luke then dying and then teaching after death might be the best image for it.

edited 10th Oct '15 11:43:06 PM by Memers

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#32: Oct 10th 2015 at 11:49:07 PM

^^ The issue I think is that The Obi-Wan is clearly intended to be the Mentor Archetype ("The Obi-Wan is an Archetypal Character. [...] For more information concerning "The Mentor" and other narrative archetypes, see Vladmir Propp's theory of narrative"). Except because it was made in the early days before things like Trope Namer Syndrome were recognized as problems, it started by looking at Obi-Wan Kenobi as a character and then building a trope around him rather than the archetypal role he's derived from (Star Wars is of course a fantasy set in space that recycles various mythical tropes) and other mentor tropes that might apply to him. It's a "trope" built in reverse by cherrypicking elements from other or older tropes.

Obviously, the trope is named after him as a result of Fan Myopia (which is already a concern for shoehorning and zero context examples if nothing else), but there are also elements clearly specific to Obi-Wan's situation, such as the idea that the mentor will usually become a Spirit Advisor mentioned in the second paragraph—I question that this is something that can be expected to happen in the majority of cases for an archetypal mentor.

So without starting a TRS (yet), I think the images suggested here would be much stronger illustrations for Mentor Archetype, the current of which is just bad.

edited 11th Oct '15 2:40:58 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
DeisTheAlcano Bored Witch Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Bored Witch
#33: Oct 11th 2015 at 11:43:11 AM

[up]Seconded, the current image in Mentor Archetype doesn't show any mentoring at all.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#34: Nov 2nd 2015 at 12:44:56 AM

Clock is set.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#35: Nov 2nd 2015 at 2:36:43 PM

Thirded. There's definitely a link between Mentor Archetype and Obi-Wan, with Mentor Archetype being what Obi-Wan is trying to be, and the image for Mentor Archetype is awful.

What happens when a clock is set?

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
ShadowHog from Earth Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#36: Nov 2nd 2015 at 2:49:23 PM

Strictly speaking: nothing.

When the set clock runs out, however, the thread is generally closed for inactivity or lack of consensus. It's an attempt to prod people into action.

Moon
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#37: Nov 2nd 2015 at 2:55:23 PM

Ah, understood. Thanks.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
lexicon Since: May, 2012
#38: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:41:21 PM

Should we just remove the man in the robe from the page?

Josef5678 Psshhh... from Virginia Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: Mu
Psshhh...
#39: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:44:56 PM

Yeah, I say pull. Previous image, just for reference:

ShadowHog from Earth Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#40: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:55:29 PM

Eh, I know Fast Eddie's say doesn't really have much bearing anymore, but I'm gonna stick with his assertion that Star Wars transcends JAFAAC.

Moon
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#41: Nov 2nd 2015 at 7:10:11 PM

We don't really know what the trope IS but the image does not represent any definition of the trope that's been brought up.

This trope needs a TRS before actually finding an image.

As it stands chopping it completely is probably the best since we already have tropes to fit all the meanings.

DeisTheAlcano Bored Witch Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Bored Witch
#42: Nov 2nd 2015 at 7:14:10 PM

I agree. Pull.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#43: Nov 3rd 2015 at 12:14:59 AM

^^ Agreed. Pull without replacement—it contributes nothing to any understanding of this article.

edited 3rd Nov '15 12:18:05 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
rafi Since: Jun, 2014
Josef5678 Psshhh... from Virginia Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: Mu
Psshhh...
#45: Nov 6th 2015 at 2:45:46 PM

A lot of people are saying pull. Can someone do that please?

DeisTheAlcano Bored Witch Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Bored Witch
#46: Nov 6th 2015 at 8:05:09 PM

I pulled the image and updated the Image source page. Is there anything else we need to do?

Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#47: Nov 6th 2015 at 8:36:28 PM

No, I think we're done here. Anyone planning on starting a thread for Mentor Archetype?

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#48: Nov 7th 2015 at 2:32:10 AM

I'll start a new thread after this one wraps up.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#49: Nov 9th 2015 at 11:13:13 PM

OK, closing this one down.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
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