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AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#151: Jun 14th 2017 at 7:15:34 PM

I dunno, I still like Days of Future Past a good deal. But the hell is meant by Feige's plan? Marvel is not getting the X-Men back and to be honest I don't want them to just yet.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#152: Jun 14th 2017 at 7:35:25 PM

[up]

I know Marvel ain't getting those rights back, but a man can dream.

A lot of people seem to like Days Of Future Past. I saw it, didn't hate it, but never had the desire to watch it again. Most people I know had the same reaction I had. I mean, the movie's not bad, it's just not as good as some people make it out to be.

[up][up]

I didn't mean the original X-Men trilogy, I meant the more recent ones. The ones that started with First Class/Origins: Wolverine. And, really, the only movies I considered to be completely good (not counting Deadpool) are the first two (with the second being, overall, the best X-Men movie ever). Other than that they are just average, with great moments (like the Quicksilver scenes) or great characters (Wolverine, Magneto/Xavier in First Class) carrying the weight of those movies.

If you asked me what is it that hurts these movies the most, I would answer that it's the antagonists. The shitty, shitty antagonists. Either these antagonists are forgettable, feel like they don't have any weight on the plot, get completely sidetracked by Magneto, or are plainly stupid.

The X-Men work best when they are being hunted down, facing annihilation and a cunning individual, not only one superpowered dude with an evil plan to rule the world. That's what makes the second X-Men movie so good.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#153: Jun 14th 2017 at 8:42:54 PM

Apocalypse is usually a lot more interesting as someone who's been manipulating mutantkind for thousands of years as opposed to some big blue demon who just shows up and starts to wreck shop, that's for sure.

ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#154: Jun 15th 2017 at 4:22:51 AM

[up]

That has also raised the question of why he hasn't taken over the world in those thousands of years among fans.

EDIT: And how is that possible? Mutantkind hasn't been around for thousands of years. They didn't start popping up in large numbers until modern times.

edited 15th Jun '17 4:57:46 AM by ManOfSin

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#155: Jun 15th 2017 at 4:28:48 AM

He's more interesting to me if he's powerful on an individual level but not capable of taking on armies by himself, if he's charismatic and has a certain mystique (not that one) about him that allows him to persuade others of his godhood whether or not there are other mutants more deserving of the title.

...how can you be asking that? Aren't you the X-Men guy? There have been mutants for thousands of years, just not in any great numbers. All the more reason for Apocalypse to work from behind the scenes, piling strings, sponsoring Sinister's mutant breeding efforts.

edited 15th Jun '17 4:33:39 AM by Unsung

ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#156: Jun 15th 2017 at 4:38:27 AM

Read the last sentence of my post.

edited 15th Jun '17 4:41:53 AM by ManOfSin

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#157: Jun 15th 2017 at 4:53:22 AM

Edit: You were probably being rhetorical.

edited 15th Jun '17 4:54:02 AM by Unsung

Prowler I'm here for our date, Rose! Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
I'm here for our date, Rose!
#158: Jun 15th 2017 at 6:19:48 PM

I've yet to see Logan...but the only X-Men movie I really like at this point is Days of Future Past. Someone summed up First Class as feeling like a feature-length montage, which I found to be pretty apt, and I was surprised to see how lifeless I found X2 after re-watching some of it for the first time in years recently. The first film is alright, and The Wolverine was solid. The less said about the rest of them, the better.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#159: Jun 15th 2017 at 6:21:55 PM

What about Deadpool though?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Prowler I'm here for our date, Rose! Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
I'm here for our date, Rose!
#160: Jun 15th 2017 at 6:33:40 PM

I guess I forgot about it.

It's fun. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#161: Jun 15th 2017 at 6:50:36 PM

I quite like X1-X2-The Wolverine-Logan-Deadpool and First Class.

Loathe Days of Future Past and Apocalypse.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
kaalban Schrodinger's Human from everywhere and nowhere Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Schrodinger's Human
#162: Jun 15th 2017 at 6:56:42 PM

[up]Why would you loathe these movies? Apocalypse I get, but DOFP?

[down] Nobody needs to remember that movie. Nobody. Especially when far superior Wolverine and Deadpool movies came out.

edited 15th Jun '17 7:01:39 PM by kaalban

Everything that lives is designed to end.
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#163: Jun 15th 2017 at 6:58:02 PM

I like how Origins:Wolverine is conveniently ignored out of charity.

ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#164: Jun 15th 2017 at 7:10:05 PM

I bet you Dark Phoenix is really just Trial of Jean Grey by Bendis. There are some massive hints pointing to that.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#165: Jun 15th 2017 at 7:16:55 PM

@kaalban: I have always been unable to comprehend the praise DOFP gets.

I've always found it a deeply muddled film that feels rushed. First Class ends with Xavier and Magneto literally just finishing founding the X-Men and the Brotherhood and starting to slip into their more traditional roles. It'd have been interesting to see the early days of their battle and involvement with society. First Class sets up a bunch of intriguing concepts in this regard.

Days proceeds to salt the earth by having both organizations be wiped out off-screen, have Magneto arrested and Xavier fall down the rabbit hole of drug addiction that take away his powers but make him walk again, Bolivar Trask's unique brand of anti-mutant prejudice climbed him to a highly important position, and in the future we see mutantkind destroyed by Trask's Sentinel project, Magneto and Xavier joined forces in the future and so must in the past, so forth.

So the entire set-up of First Class is hurled through a window and the movie establishes a new status quo that the movie doesn't have time to dwell on, so nothing really has impact for me. Lines like "All these years we spent fighting Charles" and the weight the movie gives to Erik and Charles rings extremely hollow because we haven't' seen them fight all that much in the past. The end of mutantkind has no real impact because everything is back to normal by the end of the film, Bolivar Trask's ascencion feels like it should have more impact, Mystique's supposed Start of Darkness doesn't happen and she just sticks around as Jennifer Lawrence-lite, and so forth. The decision to contrast future Magneto's redemption with past Magneto going full genocidal for the fourth time in the franchise also derails a lot of the movie's dramatic forte. The whole movie rings extremely hollow because of how much it skips.

It should have been two films, if you ask me. Ideally? Three (one to show past Xavier and Magneto fighting, and a DOFP duology). As it is it feels like it's rushing to reach Apocalypse. And in Apocalypse it feels like it's rushing to reach Dark Phoenix. Going by the way this franchise is going, it'll rush to reach Messiah Complex or some shit.

Apocalypse suffers from a similar but lesser problem. The only really iconic story the character has is Age of Apocalypse and you can't do that in one film.

edited 15th Jun '17 7:23:30 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
kaalban Schrodinger's Human from everywhere and nowhere Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Schrodinger's Human
#166: Jun 15th 2017 at 7:27:11 PM

I think "All these years fighting each other" quote was supposed to reference past X-Men films, but I see where you're coming from. Would have been neat if we actually got to see it.

Apocalypse definitely needed more movies (these are instances when Part 1 and Part 2 format is actually useful), I agree. I liked (even loved) DOFP, so I'm not sure if it needed to be duology. Each to their own , I guess.

One thing I am definitely baffled about, however, is Mystique. She was fine in First Class, then DOFP took things a bit too far, then Apocalypse just ruined it.

Everything that lives is designed to end.
ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#167: Jun 15th 2017 at 7:29:12 PM

[up][up]

Nitpick: Magneto wasn't planning genocide. He just wanted the president and his crew dead.

[up]

Apocalypse didn't really need two movies. It needed to cut down on stuff that wasn't needed like the Mystique subplot and the Weapon X scene. The original X-Factor storyline wasn't that long and still managed to be cool.

edited 15th Jun '17 7:33:09 PM by ManOfSin

kaalban Schrodinger's Human from everywhere and nowhere Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Schrodinger's Human
#168: Jun 15th 2017 at 7:35:35 PM

[up] One movie for developing characters (both X-men and Apocalypse side), second about their war, so it seems that Apocalypse is bigger of a threat. At least, that's how I wanted. Agreed about taking out Wolverine and Mystique, though. That also could have helped.

Everything that lives is designed to end.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#169: Jun 15th 2017 at 8:20:46 PM

[up][up] I was being hyperbolic, but still, the point was Magneto being a dick again.

For me DOFP would have benefited (aside from the aforementioned concept of actually showing past Magneto and past Xavier's rivalry taking place) from two movies to show in more detail Trask's downfall and the end of mutantkind in the future, so everyone's deaths would feel meaningful and suspenseful. It'd give the movie a ESB vibe, where it's all doomed, before the second DOFP brings hope back.

Apocalypse likewise. His iconic arc is a Crapsack World of mutant supremacy that he builds, and we really need that for the character to fully work.

If you're wondering if those aren't too many world-ending scenarios, then well that's X-Men for you. Most of their iconic arcs involve THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT.

Part of what's cool about Logan is that it has fairly high stakes (still dealing with the end of mutantkind) but it's set in a much smaller scale and story, and it allows for further stories like that (I really want to see X-29 fleeing through the forest and building a Genosha in Canada).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#170: Jun 16th 2017 at 6:38:04 AM

I bet you Dark Phoenix is really just Trial of Jean Grey by Bendis. There are some massive hints pointing to that.
Perhaps in premise (the Shi'ar kidnap Jean Grey to stop the Phoenix), but not in specifics, since "The Trial of Jean Grey" was a crossover between All-New X-Men and Guardians of the Galaxy. But actually, I'm hoping that the Starjammers appear, because that would be awesome.

ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#171: Jun 16th 2017 at 7:57:42 AM

[up]

It's seems that the last two films have set-up a similar motive for the Shi'ar. Wanting to kill Jean for what her older did (and what she might do again). With Hank in DOFP saying history repeats itself and Jean's vision in Apocalypse.

edited 16th Jun '17 8:05:18 AM by ManOfSin

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#172: Jun 16th 2017 at 8:20:26 AM

[up] The problem with that, however, is that in the original timeline, the Phoenix did kill a bunch of people...but all of them were on Earth. She never left the planet, never killed another planet, never showed herself as this huge existential threat.

If they are going with the "Trial of Jean Grey," then they have to explain why the Shi'ar are afraid of Jean and they can't use X-Men 3 as evidence. They have to explain the Phoenix Force and everything like that or they have to say that Jean becomes so strong a mutant in the future that she destroys galaxies or something. In either case, much more than what we've seen before. (Man, X3 really did ruin things, didn't it?)

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#173: Jun 16th 2017 at 8:37:01 AM

[up][up]My bigger concern is are they going to actually make an effort to make the formerly teen X-Men look older this time. Because it was kind of jarring seeing the First Class era X-Men all apparently being Dorian Gray.

ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#174: Jun 16th 2017 at 8:59:28 AM

[up][up]

Well, X3 did state that she had the potential for limitless power. Of course we didn't see it until XMA. The very first thing the title villian did when he woke up was shake the entire planet with his energy, fend off against Xavier who had his telepathy enhanced to a planetary scale without the use Cerebro, and Magneto who also had planetary scale. And Jean made Apocalypse into her bitch.

Even earlier in the film, Xavier initially thought it was Jean that shook the planet and Jean said her power was still growing. The visions Jean had was that of the world getting destroyed.

So new timeline Jean going Dark Phoenix would be vastly more dangerous than she was in the old timeline.

[up]

Jean would be in her mid-20s and Sophie Turner is in her earlier 20s.

edited 16th Jun '17 9:00:36 AM by ManOfSin

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#175: Jun 16th 2017 at 10:52:32 AM

I think "All these years fighting each other" quote was supposed to reference past X-Men films, but I see where you're coming from. Would have been neat if we actually got to see it.

If you're going to reboot a franchise, you don't mention the pre-reboot movies. Story-wise, from the perspective of the writer and in the narrative sense, that quote makes no sense. We haven't seen them fight at all, there has not been any great conflict between them. That's why I kind of hate fucking DOFP. Because it's asspull after asspull after asspull. They want to do world-building but they rush it like crazy and don't explain some things.

Take Quicksilver just casually mentioning that Magneto is his father. I mean, the movie relies on the fact that we moviegoers have that previous knowledge, but to the general audience it just feels sudden, without any foreshadowing and unearned.

I stand by my reasoning that the X-Men movies not failing is because they rely on other superhero movies being downright awful. I mean, we see the X-Men movies are just barely above mediocre at best, then take a look at the Fantastic Four movies or the Suicide Squad movie, move back to the X-Men ones and we go, "Well, they're ok, I guess".

edited 16th Jun '17 10:55:53 AM by ExplosiveLion


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