Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Kylo is the protagonist of the ST as a whole. He is the one who did all the important stuff, i.e. exiling Luke, killing Han, destroying Snoke, empowering Rey (which he did accidentally during the interrogation/torture session in TFA), and also triggering Finn's defection to the Rebellion. The story and mystery is all tied to him, what are his motivations, what's his endgame, does he love Rey or whatnot?

This is one of the casualties of Rey's parents are nobodies. Yeah, it's a cool subversion of the chosen one, yeah it opens up the Jedi and mythos to the non-Skywalkers. In theory, that's all good. What it achieves in practice is diminish the female protagonist and hero you are setting and building up over 2 movies to be no different than Broom Boi at the end. Rey hardly gets any lines or does anything really notable at the end of the movie. The last shot focuses on some rando kid at Canto Bight. Her big emotional scene at the end is her shaking hands with Poe Dameron for the first time, and smiling at Finn and Rose Tico being cute. I mean she comes in and catches at the drama which happened without her for the course of the film. She's got no dramatic arc and mystery. That cool bit in the middle with her snapping at her reflections...yeah it's not tied to anything big.

Luke Skywalker is the protagonist of the OT, he's the one who inspires Han Solo to turn to the Light Side. He's the one who triggers Darth Vader to try and plot against the Emperor, and in ROTJ he shuts down Jabba the Hut, gets the Ewoks to side with the rebellion, confronts the Emperor and redeems Vader which kills Palpatine. I don't think Rey is getting the same amount of treatment and special favor as Luke is in OT.

It's the antagonist of most stories who drives the plot, not the protagonist. For example, Vader is the one who kidnapped Leia which forced R2 to go to Tatooine and meet Luke.

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"

It was Leia who dispatched the droids to Tatooine, where Obi-Wan was. She did that knowing that the ship was going to be overrun by the Empire. At best, Vader accidentally triggered Luke joining the rebellion when the ST kill Owen and Beru (and I am going to assume they went rogue and did that without Vader knowing, since that part was never made clear or spelled out in the films themselves). And Vader is not the main bad guy of ANH its Tarkin, the Butcher of Alderaan. The important thing that turns ANH is Han showing up at the Millennium Falcon and he did that because of his friendship with Luke. Especially that scene in the hangar where Han asks Luke to defect and Luke says no, and then he changed his mind and came through. So Luke's actions do drive a good chunk of the plot. It was also Luke who mostly planned and led the group through the Death Star infiltration. In ESB, Vader is the antagonist for the first and only time and his actions does set the plot in motion, and at its core, ESB is Han Solo's movie since he saves Luke at the start, he has the romantic plot with Leia and he gets the tragic finish of being encased in carbonite while Luke faces this major setback. And then ROTJ, Luke ascends to his full potential at the start at Tatooine.

Darth Vader by himself doesn't have a lot of agency or affects the plot even if overall he's the protagonist of the first 6 films and the most important character of the series. That's why he's such an unique and fascinating character. The Chosen One who is essentially Almighty Janitor and flunky, sidekick and minion for most of the movies featuring him.

IF you look at the OT by itself, it's Luke's story. The PT is Anakin's story, and the ST is Kylo's story.

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Mar 23rd 2019 at 4:24:18 AM

I've somewhat lost interest in Finn. I mean, apart from being the black lead, what else does he really have going for him?

As time goes by I've increasingly lost interest in Finn as well. Mainly because the parts of his background that feel totally disconnected from the story (him being a Stormtrooper who wanted out) I've seen done more interesting and better by other works. In both directions, sticking with the villains and betraying them.

No, Kylo is the antagonist. The protagonist is not "Who does more stuff," it's "Who does the story follow," i.e. the protagonist is the person that the story follows the most, which for TFA is Rey and Finn. The antagonist is the character who opposes the protagonist, which is Kylo.

I'd also argue that Kylo did not "empower" Rey or cause Finn to rebel — Finn rebels because he couldn't stand his first battle and hates the First Order, while Rey is empowered wholely by her own choices.

We know his motivations, there is no mystery with him (beyond Snoke), and no, he doesn't love Rey.

Nope. Nope nope nope. Rey's parents being nobodies doesn't diminish her at all. The story of Star Wars is larger than just the story of one family — that's the entire point of Rey. Her choosing to be a part of the Rebellion, choosing to find Luke, choosing to save people, even though she comes from nothing, is a huge part of not just her character, but the story of the ST as a whole. "You come from nothing, you are nothing" is merely Kylo trying to manipulate her.

I think she gets just as much focus, but with a different storyline.

Edited by alliterator on Mar 23rd 2019 at 5:26:42 AM

She aids killing Snoke and takes down half his guards. She lures away and shoots down all the FO's TIE fighters via the Millennium Falcon. She then saves the Resistance by mastering the Force and then is implied to intend to train a new Jedi Order.

Rey does so much stuff.

But can she do so much stuff while chugging a gallon of milk all at once?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

green milk too

New theme music also a box

But does she know why kids love the taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

Don't think she could afford Cinnamon Toast Crunch on Jakku.

"What a century this week has been." - Seung Min Kim

Although, thinking on it, while Rey does a lot of stuff, it's mostly lending a helping hand to people as they go through their own stories, rather than advancing her own. The Resistance escaping from the First Order, Kylo rebelling against Snoke, Luke getting over his self-imposed exile: none of those things could have happened without Rey's assistance and/or inspiration, but they're also moments that are more about those other characters than they are about her.

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

In theory, it should have worked. In practice, I think the film unintentionally proved Kylo Ren to be right. After that Lightsaber Tug of War scene, Rey disappears from the film until the Millennium Falcon scene where she acts as if the aforementioned scene never happened. No transition from being shocked to being excited. No reflection upon the consequences of her actions. No scene of her contemplating on sparing or killing Kylo Ren (and thus missing an Ironic Echo situation where she is now Luke Skywalker standing over Kylo Ren).

Instead, we are simply told she got off the Supremacy by General Hux. As if her thoughts over the fact that she was wrong about Kylo Ren all along are deemed irrelevant to the movie.

In the end, it isn't Rey who confronts Kylo Ren on Crait; it's Luke Skywalker and Luke Skywalker alone. There's not even a scene where Luke properly passes the torch to Rey. Heck, I'm not even sure if Rey and Luke had planned the rescue together. It seems to be a series of lucky chances.

And Rey never really had a choice at all in TFA. I remember her running away from destiny, only to run into Kylo Ren and the remainder of the plot is her trying to get off the Starkiller Base with the bonus of helping Finn blow-up the super weapon. And I don't recall her saying to Leia "I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like Luke Skywalker" which would have been useful to make it clear that she's not a Pinball Protagonist. She just accepts Leia's mission and we are to expected that a random girl could persuade Luke to get off the island (and TLJ gives us Reality Ensues since Luke was only persuaded to do something by Leia's hologram and Yoda's ghost, not Rey herself).

Edited by Shadao on Mar 24th 2019 at 1:20:09 AM

Because that already happened prior to the Tug of War. Kylo Ren tries to persuade her and manipulate her and she says no, she turns him down, even after they've killed Snoke and his guards together. What's the point of showing her afterward leaving when we've already seen the big emotional beat of the story?

Again: we've already seen her realize that she was wrong about Kylo. That entire scene is played beautifully as Kylo repeatedly tries to get her to admit that only he cares about her and it's only by being on his side that she can be something, but she rejects that thinking and him along with it.

"And I am not the last Jedi."

Man I really hope there are some survivors of Luke’s orders purge & he was just too much of a dumbass to notice.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Even if there aren't, he knows he won't be the last Jedi, because the Jedi are not dependent upon one person. The Jedi are chosen by the Force and the Force is everywhere. Hence why Rey can be a big Force user and also come from nobodies.

Edited by alliterator on Mar 24th 2019 at 2:15:17 AM

We just using Jedi as a catch-all term for Force-Users now?

So is a serial-killer who can use the Force automatically a Jedi?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

I never said all Force-Users were Jedi, I said all Jedi were chosen by the Force. There's a difference.

I mean isn’t that obvious?

You can’t choose to be a Jedi if you can’t use the Force first.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

That entire plot about TLJ felt like overdone prequel bashing and jerky on the part of Luke. "The Jedi suck, they slept while Palpatine manipulated everyone". You know what the Jedi didn't do, ignite their lightsaber on sleeping kids for what they might do. Neither Obi Wan or Yoda would ever do that. It just felt disproportionate and ridiculous. On a character level it didn't make sense. Luke rejected Obi-Wan and Yoda's way when he turned down their orders to kill Vader and sought to reform him. He knows they aren't perfect or always right. He had full freedom on how to go about creating the Jedi order, and it wasn't the Jedi institution's fault that Kylo went to the Dark Side or any of their teachings which caused that. And say what you want, there's no shame in being undone by Palpatine, there's plenty of shame in being punk'd by Snoke.

What Jedi bashing? Luke says these things because he's hurt and angry but tge story doesn't treat them as right and the film ends with the acknowledgement that the Jedi are still needed. They just have to change.

Well Yoda comes in and validates Luke by setting fire on that tree. Which again you know that island is filled with nuns who are taking care of this stuff, if you are insulting and denigrating, you are also casting shade on their lives' work.

And of course Rey takes the sacred texts but that just means that Rey will do what Luke couldn't, and Luke is a terrible master. Which okay makes sense...but why then does he get a heroic death and the entire finale of the film? It should be Rey there and not him.

After that Lightsaber Tug of War scene, Rey disappears from the film until the Millennium Falcon scene where she acts as if the aforementioned scene never happened.

Which reminds me that people theorize she was supposed to have been injured by Snoke's guards and captured by Ren because of that and the editing to the fight.

Why is it such a binary choice? Luke was a flawed master not a "terrible" one. He made mistakes, it doesn't mean he isn't a hero.

Also, are you really saying it would be better for the Sequel Trilogy to kill off the first female protagonist of the Star Wars movies in only her second movie?

Edited by windleopard on Mar 24th 2019 at 7:07:38 AM

Yoda is a flawed master. He failed Vader but he did right by Obi-Wan. Luke never does anything right. He didn't really teach Rey anything that she didn't pick up or do better than she did before.

I am saying she should have been there to confront Kylo, or been in on the joke of the Astral projection or seen Luke's "return". Luke was there when Obi-Wan and Yoda both passed away after all.