Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

I uh, think you might be in the wrong topic my dude. Unless Marvel and Star Wars suddenly became joint franchises when I wasn't looking.

EDIT: Oh hey, page topper!

Edited by JamieMoon on Jan 23rd 2019 at 7:57:27 AM

Yeah, wrong topic, which mean I probably post the star wars answer in another topic, damn it.

But let me explain....again, kreia sort of have a point because SW is a cyclical thing of democraci been atack by facism all over again, all moving by force users so is bound to happen one way of another.

And Kreia is full of bullshit because all she wants to do is trade one extreme for another, but no one wants to call her out on it. So even if Kylo can be called out on it as an expy of Kreia, it might make the whole ride worth it. To say “no, Kreia’s philosophy is childish and ultimately repugnant, and there is something to hope for outside of Baby’s First Nihilism Lecture.”

Okay, I am not at all familiar with this Kreia character but this is not the message TLJ is sending. At all. Like, to even come to this conclusion is a leap of logic worthy of the Incredible Hulk. It really feels like you're taking out your dislike of this Kreia character out on TLJ and assuming it follows the same philosophy as her. But there is a difference between saying something is worthless and criticizing it. I mean, Star Wars is a franchise often known for introspection of the ideals it espouses so what is TLJ doing that is so different and worthy of such scorn?

Kreia is the main...antagonist and a supporting protagonist (it’s complicated) of Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords. She's essentially an Author Avatar that condemns any action short of not doing anything as making the galaxy worse, and the player is never given any meaningful retort against her philosophy, which is that the Force itself is inherently the problem, and the only way to end the endless cycle of Sith and Jedi is to remove the Force from the equation entirely. Essentially, you suck for liking magic space wizards and there’s no fixing the problem as long as they continue to exist, and even the act of helping people with the Force is inherently wicked because it create greater problems down the line. Ultima IX pushes a similar philosophy, that your quest to do good was ultimately evil (because of circumstances outside your control) and fixing the problem is atonement for earlier evil actions, namely your trying to do good. Don’t be good, don’t be evil, the only righteous choice is apathy.

Kylo...seemed ready to jump there, since the end is him rejecting the Sith (killing Snoke) and the Jedi (trying to kill Luke and wiping out any attempt to revive the Jedi). That the Force itself is the problem.

Edited by Beatman1 on Jan 23rd 2019 at 11:41:48 AM

That's oversimplifying, and you do get to shut down Kreia on a couple of occasions. Had the game not been Christmas Rushed, you probably would've gotten to do so more comprehensively and more often — that's pretty much how Chris Avellone's writing works elsewhere. Kreia is wrong and she knows she's wrong, but she doesn't know the solution, so she forces you to fight her on her own terms. Which is also wrong, but by that point she is basically throwing a fit like you're saying, after having her more nuanced arguments thrown in her face by the Jedi Council.

...who, in the original draft of the game, would have been possible to convince otherwise, that the Exile wasn't just another Darth Nihilus waiting to happen. But again, Christmas Rushed.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 23rd 2019 at 10:55:40 AM

That’s my inherent problem with it. The narrative as it stands doesn’t let you refute her in any meaningful fashion (but at least the intent was there, distinctly unlike Ultima IX.) Kreia has the inkling of a fascinating character but without the ability to tell her off in any meaningful way she becomes obnoxious. Now we have Kylo Ren who seems to be heading down the same path, and the idea of being able to give him the speech Kreia should have gotten has an immense appeal.

Edited by Beatman1 on Jan 23rd 2019 at 11:48:41 AM

I can appreciate the idea of Kylo becoming Kreia 2.0 and the fight against him being a sort of argument against the Golden Mean Fallacy Kreia spouses. Have Kylo throw a Suicidal Cosmic Temper Tantrum and something could be done here.

Edited by Gaon on Jan 23rd 2019 at 9:07:48 AM

I used to dislike Kreia as well, but the reason her arguments look so enticing to me is largely because we can't get new Star Wars content that ISN'T related to Jedi versus Sith in some form. If the franchise was willing to move forward and try new ideas, Chris would never have created her and we'd never have this conversation about Ren trying to find a new way.

Edited by VeryMelon on Jan 23rd 2019 at 12:36:55 PM

Pretty much, TJL end justifying her view by repeting the same sith vs jedi conflict almost beat for beat, with a space of thirty years no less.

Any rebutal have to be something good that Rey just saying "we have good guys and we are better" or kylo ranting, otherwise it would be fake.

Wait, what were we talking about?

Kylo potentially becoming Kreia 2.0 and the potential storytelling, even if it’s just finally letting someone indirectly tell Kreia she’s full of shit.

And that IMO would be preferable to a ROTJ rehash.

Legends. Kreia was created before Disney acquired the rights to Star Wars. There was a tendency for writers to reuse the same old same of Neo Empire builds Super Weapon that gets destroyed by a tiny crack that the Rebels/New Republic exploits or some battle between Jedi and Sith/Darksiders in the old EU. Anyways, I’m sure we’ll never see that old cliche in the New Disney Star Wars...

Edited by Shadao on Jan 23rd 2019 at 12:28:12 PM

Why hasn't this been retitled the general Star Wars thread? I know what happened to the thread that originally held that title, but at this point it seems this thread is fulfilling the same purpose.

The big issue is, an underlying principle behind the Original Trilogy is about the need for Rebellion against a tyrannical government. Lucas himself said this was based heavily on the atmosphere of the 60's and 70's, and much of the Prequels themes are tied in with the Nixon administration and his desperation to hold and consolidate his power (several other works like Watchmen and Back to the Future Part II depict an Alternate History where Nixon found a way to extend his presidency beyond two terms, much like Palpatine). A theme in the prequels and other works in the prequel era is that yes, the previous policies of the Jedi were flawed and the EU said that Luke's Jedi Order learned from their mistakes to become more empathy oriented rather than isolationist. In addition to that, the different nature of the battles in the prequels was a demonstration of how these conflicts can change and evolve over time.

That's where the sequels are failing. Of everything they could have done they chose to reset the empire vs. rebellion, the Jedi Order falling due to their own isolationist policies along with the betrayal of one of their own and in general seems to glorify this stagnant conflict and pay lip service to the idea rather than offering any solution or even change the nature of the conflict. There is nothing that says Rey learned anything new about being a Jedi or avoiding their pitfalls. There is nothing that says the New-New Republic the Resistance tries to rebuild will be any better than the last two. Basically the epitome of Concepts Are Cheap, if the characters don't actually learn or explore anything from the problems being presented it's just window dressing.

Edited by KJMackley on Jan 23rd 2019 at 12:53:44 PM

So the destruction of the new Jedi Order has almost nothing to do with the old Jedi Order, aside from betrayal from one of their own.

It may not have been the specific reason no, but the heart of the criticism is the decision to regurgitate a well worn conflict from the last 3-6 films regardless.

How was the conflict regurgitated? In the PT, the Jedi Order was made up of thousands of Jedi who were all slaughtered at once due to Order 66 and the machinations of Palpatine, which they never saw coming. In the ST, the Jedi Order was made up of Luke and a bunch of students, who were mainly slaughtered at once due to Kylo Ren going crazy when Luke saw a bunch of darkness within him and instinctively turned on his lightsaber. Order 66 was all part of Palpatine's plan; Kylo Ren had no plan at all.

One conflict was about how the Jedi Order couldn't fathom a threat against it; the other conflict was about how Luke made a single mistake and everything toppled from there.

Kylo didn’t have a plan because he was taking orders, not giving them. Now that he’s in charge, they do have a chance, albeit a slim one, to create a non-rehash of a conflict.

I wished we knew more about about Luke's jedi order in this trilogy but the two movies kinda of indicated that the jedi students were fairly isolated from the galaxy as a whole.

How? We don't see any of the students aside from Kylo and we don't know anything about his Order, other than they were slaughtered by Kylo.

Theory on Han taking Leia's name and why that would make sense.

Edited by windleopard on Jan 27th 2019 at 8:32:17 AM

Not killing them off before the first movie of the new trilogy would have been a start.

Just because they are dead now doesn't mean they were isolated back then. That logic doesn't follow.