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Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2751: Aug 11th 2017 at 9:53:02 PM

The first is that Luke Skywalker is not the hero she envisioned. He is bitter, grumpy and doesn't want her around. That's a heartbreak. The second is that if Luke was the father she had been looking for, then he is not even the father that she envisioned as well.

Again, this just makes what is already there on a surrogate level literal, basically allowing the single plot to be longer but not really expanding it. These are more or less the same narrative.

You could have both in a story, sure, but if they're specifically going for a "whammy" it's not very much of one. Hell, even something uncreative and generic like "your parents are [original characters] who I trained, but who I failed and and let by murdered by my nephew" has more options.

edited 11th Aug '17 9:59:31 PM by KnownUnknown

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2752: Aug 11th 2017 at 9:59:57 PM

[up] It hurts a lot more if her actual father was indeed this Luke Skywalker. This broken man who doesn't want her. Who fails at every expectations that she has for both her hero and her family.

It's not exactly the same as finding out that an evil villain is your father. But finding out that your hero is both your father and failure still hurts and it's quite original emotionally for the likes of Star Wars.

And again, none of the audience have attachment to dead parents they never knew of. But they have attachments to a character they know and would be disappointed to see in this state.

edited 11th Aug '17 10:01:17 PM by Shadao

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#2753: Aug 11th 2017 at 10:00:47 PM

Not really. They're dead, the audience never got to meet or know them, and thus has zero reason to give a crap about them. In that case, they'd have been better off at least confirming that she isn't a legacy character early on (show their faces, give us their names, give her a last name, etc) while also preserving the mystery of why they left and what they were involved in (which they could still do).

As is stands, going out of their way to hide EVERYTHING about them for so long, makes pulling off the "she's unrelated" idea even harder than it needed to be.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2754: Aug 11th 2017 at 10:05:55 PM

[up][up] It hurts more, but it's still the same story as "the mentor I idealized turns out to be an asshat." Hence my bit about how the story could use it, but it's not a whammy.

And to be fair, if it's not a twist the fact that the audience has no attachment to those characters doesn't matter, because they're not supposed to. As The Force Awakens left it, we could just plain not get an answer about her past and the story would be just fine. The fans would be disappointed, but as long as the movie was good they would get over it.

As for the hiding bit, the fact that they're hiding it doesn't mean it's one very specific secret, especially since their hiding it is generating hype for the movie.

Think the same way Spider Man Homecoming handled the huge viral theory about Michelle being MJ, which in retrospect was very blatantly them being secretive for the sake of letting that fan reaction bring in the customers.

edited 11th Aug '17 10:12:35 PM by KnownUnknown

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2755: Aug 11th 2017 at 10:10:04 PM

[up] That story hinges upon people assuming that Rey is Luke's daughter by the end. Just like how the PT's story hinges upon people assuming that Darth Sidious is really Senator Palpatine. If Rey is not a Skywalker, the whole thing falls apart and people will see TFA as an unoriginal and uncreative stain towards the Star Wars saga.

As for Spider-Man Homecoming and the whole MJ debacle, it was an I Knew It! from the fans. They weren't wrong. No matter what Kevin Fiege says, Michelle Jones is the Mary Jane of MCU.

edited 11th Aug '17 10:12:13 PM by Shadao

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2756: Aug 11th 2017 at 10:13:06 PM

That's not what happened with Homecoming.

A year and a half ago, an website put out an article basically guessing that Michelle could be MJ. It was a blatant hack job, very clickbaity, that basically latched onto a character nobody knew anything about yet and saying "but what if they're lying" for the sake of getting views. And it worked. The whole thing went viral in hours.

So what does Marvel do? They don't out and kill it in a definitive way. Instead they let it happen while stoking it in subtle ways: even after they give everyone full bios, they never reveal Michelle's last name and give only the vaguest details about her character, they have the actors say as little as possible about her, etc. All in all, they let the fans wonder "are they being secretive? Surely they wouldn't be if there was nothing to hide," and let that bring them into the seats.

Then the movie itself came out, and the only thing linking her to Mary Jane was her being called MJ in one scene, while after the release the director himself out and says that nope, the character has actually nothing to do with her and is actually a Canon Foreigner. Some people were pissed off about it enough to gripe, but that number was insignificant to the amount of people who came to watch and were satisfied.

On the developers' side, this is being handled in the same basic way, and it happens all the time because it's just good business sense. It's just that people only really criticize it when moves fail to do it right and instead are terrible all around, like Fan4stic or Suicide Squad promising avenues to their characters that they blatantly didn't use while not being good enough or deflecting well enough that the audience can ignore it. Directors and writers hear what fans are speculating about, and if it gets big, they say things like "we can't talk about that" even if there's nothing to say, because doing otherwise is killing obvious pull for the movie. Especially if what's in the movie proper still technically fits what they say, it will all be fine.

That story hinges upon people assuming that Rey is Luke's daughter by the end

I feel like you're inventing things that aren't in the movie again. Force Awakens doesn't hinge upon Luke being Rey's father. Luke doesn't even graduate from "far off goal" to "immediate goal" until the end, in large part because the Starkiller Base plot takes over the whole thing in the middle. The big emotional punch in the movie comes from Han's death, and Rey's familial (surrogate or otherwise) emotions in the denoument are at best tied up with that.

edited 11th Aug '17 10:19:17 PM by KnownUnknown

RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#2757: Aug 11th 2017 at 10:18:40 PM

Here's the thing about whether Rey is important or not. Besides the "waiting for her parents" bit, several scenes had people ask "Who's the girl?". If the answer to that question is "Oh just some nobody from Jakku." why bother including that line in the first place? No one asked who Finn was, by contrast.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2758: Aug 11th 2017 at 10:22:17 PM

In movie, it does set up Kylo going after her specifically later on.

But yes, that's the only thing in the movie that could set up that he knew about her all along in the future. But that's also not what I'm arguing against. There's a difference between her presence being significant and her needing to be in the Skywalker bloodline to be significant.

edited 11th Aug '17 10:23:09 PM by KnownUnknown

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2759: Aug 11th 2017 at 10:24:16 PM

[up][up][up] Many people came out of the theater believing that Rey was Luke's daughter. Something in the movie led them to this conclusion. And this is no side plot. This is the main plot, the crux of the whole story. Rey's story is at the focus. And that includes the issue of family.

As for Michelle Jones, people didn't bother speculating about that Mary Jane rumor when her actress fundamentally denies it. It only flares back up when she called herself MJ in the actual movie. And despite what the director said, he never stated that Michelle wouldn't take up the role of Mary Jane. That's what I saw. And quite frankly, Michelle is minor in Spider-Man Homecoming. People were more into the whole Tony Stark and Micheal Keaton as the Vulture.

But Star Wars has always been about the Skywalkers. And still is referred as the story of the Skywalkers. To try to make Rey not a Skywalker is like writing a complicated story where Darth Sidious and Palatine are two different people. Sometimes, the simple solution is best method.

This is a poetry that rhymes after all.

edited 11th Aug '17 10:24:41 PM by Shadao

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2760: Aug 11th 2017 at 10:26:26 PM

Many people came out of the theater believing that Rey was Luke's daughter. Something in the movie led them to this conclusion. And this is no side plot. This is the main plot, the crux of the whole story. Rey's story is at the focus.

Yeah, those are two very different things. You're confusing a strong fan reaction and shared speculation with the movie's actual writing.

The movie isn't written such that Luke being the father of a character or Rey being the daughter of a named character a motivation, or an outcome, or anything but speculatable aside. We're never told it. We're never shown it. It's never used to drive a character's actions, or move the plot in any direction. It's never even mentioned. The actual plot of the movie is about returning Luke's location to the Resistance, and in Rey's case her personal arc is about balancing her desire to wait and see her family with her need to live her own life (which is by definition a side plot the same as Finn's personal journey, as in that particular movie she's a Deuteragonist).

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with the interpretation of the character, but saying that the movie or the way the characters are written outright demands it is going too far. And outright claiming that it was actually the real plot of the movie all along is way moreso.

edited 11th Aug '17 10:32:06 PM by KnownUnknown

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#2761: Aug 11th 2017 at 10:30:44 PM

"But Star Wars has always been about the Skywalkers. And still is referred as the story of the Skywalkers. To try to make Rey not a Skywalker is like writing a complicated story where Darth Sidious and Palatine are two different people. Sometimes, the simple solution is best method."

That's immaterial. If she is a Skywalker, they should have just gone out and said it. It's so simple to the point of obviousness, and the suspense feels incredibly artificial.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2762: Aug 11th 2017 at 10:37:09 PM

[up] Just like how Darth Sidious was really Palpatine all this time? We must also be aware that Rey does not know about her past and herself just yet. In order for any twist or suspense to be shocking these days is for both the character and audience to be on the same page.

We are not on the same page with Rey in regards to what could be her family. If Rey is a nobody, it does not affect her at all. It doesn't make her surprised or shocked in the slightest. All it does it makes fans feel cheated.

A Skywalker revelation would shock or at least amaze her. We may not be surprised, but she would be. It's the same as "Who is Darth Sidious?"

As such, a shocking twist or revelation would have to be something that neither Rey nor us would have any idea of or anticipation. Such as, "How did Rey end up on Jakku?" Or "What's the big deal with Luke's bitterness?"

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2763: Aug 11th 2017 at 10:38:25 PM

Both Sidious and Palpatine are actually present characters in every movie in the prequels, who are both constantly and simultaneously directly impacting the plot in different directions. But the fact that those directions are actually the same direction, and knowing Sidious is Palpatine both adds new layers to what the audience continues to see either character do onscreen because between the two of them they're directly driving nearly everything that we see happens to all the characters. It's very active stuff.

So it's a very different situation narratively, yeah. Even if Rey were a Skywalker, it wouldn't even really be the same kind of twist.

edited 11th Aug '17 10:43:26 PM by KnownUnknown

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2764: Aug 11th 2017 at 10:43:04 PM

[up] In hindsight. I still recall how there were threads dedicated to "Is Darth Sidious Palpatine in disguise?"

Those were the days that people said "George Lucas wouldn't go for something that obvious" or "Dark Empire reveals Palpatine cloned himself, therefore Sidious is a clone".

And it serves as a reminder of how even a Captain Obvious Reveal or The Un-Twist can be muddled by people not considering the obvious and just assume more complex narratives that make less sense than ever.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2765: Aug 11th 2017 at 10:45:17 PM

In hindsight. I still recall how there were threads dedicated to "Is Darth Sidious Palpatine in disguise?"

Okay? Not only is there still there's a difference between how much fans speculate and the writing, but I didn't say it wasn't a twist or mysterious situation. In fact, I said the exact opposite.

Just because it's a twist, doesn't mean it's written comparably to the twist you're claiming exists in the Force Awakens, even if it is there. It's a twist that operates primarily by taking two currently running plotlines and making them the same actual plotline, making the audience question the motives of characters they continually see and the fates of those who are influenced by those characters.

edited 11th Aug '17 10:48:41 PM by KnownUnknown

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2766: Aug 11th 2017 at 10:55:04 PM

[up] What I mean is that I don't expect Rey being Luke's daughter being any surprising twist or revelation. If we are to expect any shocking revelations, it lies in what we and what Rey knows so little about. Like Rey's abandonment, or Luke's mysterious past.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#2767: Aug 11th 2017 at 10:58:11 PM

I think it'd be awkward if they just dumped a "Rey is Luke's daughter" revelation right at the beginning of the film - that doesn't feel like the right place to put it, dramatically speaking, especially since that's a question that was hanging over everyone's head for the entirety of TFA.

edited 11th Aug '17 10:58:59 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2768: Aug 11th 2017 at 11:05:05 PM

But Sidious being Palpatine works as not being shocking because we see both of those characters all the time. Their plots are going on at the same time, and it's easy to link them together. Once you know what one hand is doing, what the other hand is doing makes more sense, and most importantly the plot from practically the moment Palpatine first appears makes little effort to hide it. You can watch the prequels without figuring it out for sure, hence the speculation, but the movies are very blatant about it.

Even the reasons people dismiss it for being "obvious" are very different. With Palpatine, it's because the plot kept shoving it into our faces. With Rey being a Skywalker, it's because the most basic and thus most speculated answer to a question about the future.

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2769: Aug 11th 2017 at 11:15:09 PM

[up] I have seen many "too obvious to speculate" answers turn out to be the right one. Not just in Star Wars. And really, there was a basis for Rey Skywalker. Something to do with a certain Skywalker lightsaber calling her out. You might argue otherwise, try as you might. But that scene does not go away. It sticks in people's minds. And they wonder why is the Skywalker lightsaber calling to Rey specifically. Some might say the film is beating down on people's heads that Rey is Luke's daughter.

It can be considered to be no different from the camera turning towards Palpatine when Mace asked which Sith Lord was destroyed. Again, hindsight tends to blind us from what has happened before.

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#2770: Aug 12th 2017 at 12:00:25 AM

Wouldn't be more interesting of a plot twist like...she's her daughter, but born in the same way like Anakin? Or something like she was technically made by Luke with the force as result of what happened to Ben but she has accelerated aging?

edited 12th Aug '17 12:01:30 AM by Luigisan98

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
Lizardon Since: Jan, 2015
#2771: Aug 12th 2017 at 12:57:50 AM

[up]I think that would raise way too many unnecessary questions about Luke and the Force, not to mention the very nature of Rey herself.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#2772: Aug 12th 2017 at 8:23:40 AM

"It can be considered to be no different from the camera turning towards Palpatine when Mace asked which Sith Lord was destroyed. Again, hindsight tends to blind us from what has happened before. "

For God's sake, it wasn't hindsight. Palpatine being Sidious was obvious to the extreme and the people who thought differently were the extreme minority and suffered, in general, from a Complexity Addiction.

That's what I'm arguing against. If Rey is Luke's daughter, just fucking say it. No foreplay, no useless foreshadowing, just get it over with. There's no need to take a circuitous path to the obvious conclusion when a more parsimonious path will do.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#2773: Aug 12th 2017 at 8:57:04 AM

This whole thing makes me wish they had just flat out confirmed it near the end of TFA. There doesn't need to be some big scene of the revelation. Heck, if they actually had Maz accompany them to the Resistance base they could have just had her tell Rey before she goes off to find Luke. It's obvious that Han knew who Rey really is and he tells Maz offscreen earlier in the movie.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#2774: Aug 12th 2017 at 11:53:13 AM

[up][up]ehhhh, maybe it just me but it take me tu almost revenge of the sith to conect the dots between Palpatine and Sidious, I only guess it thanks to clone wars cartoon.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#2775: Aug 12th 2017 at 1:01:17 PM

edited 12th Aug '17 1:01:44 PM by MadSkillz


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