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Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

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MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#2726: Aug 11th 2017 at 3:31:20 PM

I agree that the Chosen One narrative was actually one of the better ideas of the PT and I have no complaints against it because it's a deconstruction but I really hope they don't play it straight with Rey. The Chosen should've died with Anakin.

I agree that chosen ones narratives are better when isolated to Anakin. Both because it solidifies the role of the prophecy (if chosen ones keep popping up the prophecy loses a lot of its punch) and because really, it's a pretty trite narrative device that gets old when it keeps being reused, particularly within the same franchise. I already thought it was getting old back in the time of the prequels, only reason I somewhat enjoy the chosen one subplot in the prequels is because it's something of a deconstruction of the whole concept (the prophecy is monstrously deceiving and the Order's blind faith in it directly leads to their destruction).

So this.

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Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2727: Aug 11th 2017 at 5:55:09 PM

Yeah, not buying it. Luke and Leia both being heroic and even Anakin being a Fallen Hero Tragic Villain with a Redemption Equals Death moment point to the opposite direction, of the Skywalkwers being a heroic lineage. Kylo Ren is, if anything, the one rotten apple thus far. If you really want to make a point about redeeming villainous legacies you should be supporting the theory that Rey is Palpatine's daughter.

A Tragic Villain is still a villain, especially when it comes to mass murder, torture and cruelty. Vader's redemption did not excuse his crimes. And out of the four confirmed Skywalkers, only three were trained in the ways of the Jedi and only one did not turn evil. Why is there a White Sheep trope in Luke Skywalker's page? Not to mention that Luke went bitter and grey after the whole ordeal, running away from himself. The Skywalker family is not in a happy state.

And really, you know that the Rey Palpatine theory is laughable by every definition of the word. First off, we have no information about Palpatine's family at all. It quite possible that he fabricated his entire background and name to make himself look harmless. Second, Palpatine is a selfish man who has no interest of procreating heirs to the throne. After all, he planned to take the Empire down with him should he ever die. And finally, he's even older than Obi-Wan and still doesn't qualify as Rey's potential parent given that he died 10 years before Rey was born.

Let us remember that there are only two prominent families in the Star Wars film saga: Skywalkers and the Fetts. And the Fetts are just there for fan service as well as explaining how the Clone Army came to being. Every other character has been a single character with no known relatives in the film (which is the Kenobi theory falls apart as well).

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#2728: Aug 11th 2017 at 6:12:04 PM

[up]The only way I can see Rey as palpatine child is some sort of experiment trying to replicate and Anakin.

In fact, it is surprising he didnt really try that before.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#2729: Aug 11th 2017 at 6:41:35 PM

I'm personally still on the Rey Skywalker trainnote .

I've run into this sort of thing before where the most likely option is discarded for being "too obvious" and things that aren't remotely dealbreakers (such as Luke not immediately and confidently recognizing Rey) start being treated as just that. Then it turns out it was never actually meant to be a shocking twist at all, it was simply a plot point whose time hadn't yet come.

Regardless, whether she's his daughter or not, I do think Luke at least knew of her before his self-imposed exile. And him making the connection between this young woman who showed up out of the blue with his old lightsaber and the person he knows Rey actually is will be the thing that convinces him to start training her. I imagine their exchange going something like this:

Rey <clearly exasperated> "I spent my whole life since I was dumped on Jakku as a child thinking you were a legend, and you've just been sitting here-"

Luke: "-I will train you"

Rey: "-the whole time...wait, what?"

Luke: "I will train you in the ways of the Force."

Rey: "...okay...?"

Luke (pointing towards one of the larger structures where the books the first Jedi wrote are kept): "Right this way"

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#2730: Aug 11th 2017 at 7:06:24 PM

Vader didn't recognize Luke and Leia as being his children right away, despite being in close proximity to both. And the reason is simple, he had not reason to consider that option as he believed that said children died with Padme.

No reason why something similar cannot be true with Luke here.

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#2731: Aug 11th 2017 at 7:11:19 PM

There are a several easy handwaves to explain why Luke wouldn't recognize Rey if they actually are related.

  • Luke didn't know he had a daughter.
  • Rey isn't her birth name.
  • Luke doesn't know what Rey looks like because they were separated early in Rey's life.

EndlessSea LEGENDARY GALE from oh no you don't Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
LEGENDARY GALE
#2732: Aug 11th 2017 at 7:14:41 PM

@Shadao: Wait, only three out of four were trained in the ways of the Jedi? Wasn't it confirmed Luke trained Leia at some point?

but HOW?
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2733: Aug 11th 2017 at 7:20:27 PM

[up] She never became a Jedi or a Jedi-in-training. She was asked and she said she did not take that path. Her path is with the Senate and the Republic, not Jedi Training. That's what the novel Bloodlines said.

At best, some clairvoyance training she already had since Empire Strikes Back. But none of the lightsaber skills or more advanced techniques of the Force.

Lavaeolus Since: Jan, 2015
#2734: Aug 11th 2017 at 7:35:54 PM

If we're accepting Kylo as a representative, I don't really see why we shouldn't accept Leia as one, at least as far as judging what "the bloodline" is presented as. She isn't trained in the Force, but really, what difference does it make? She's still a major character, and her origins are still treated with some importance.

edited 11th Aug '17 7:37:09 PM by Lavaeolus

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#2735: Aug 11th 2017 at 7:47:22 PM

Honestly, if Rey is a Skywalker, they should blow that load and reveal it right away. Get it over with and move on. All this talk about Rey's parentage being the Star Wars equivalent of Rosebud is annoying to the extreme. It's not even a particularly interesting plotline, in my opinion, either. Rey is dull as a brick wall and I fundamentally don't care who her parents are.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2736: Aug 11th 2017 at 7:52:21 PM

[up][up] The thing about Leia is that she is a Skywalker who did not partake in the path of the Jedi despite her potential. And she was ruined by their reputation thanks to one Darth Vader.

Let's recap:

Luke Skywalker is MIA and is so bitter about the whole ordeal that he doesn't want to go back and save the Galaxy.

Anakin Skywalker is dead and is remembered as Darth Vader, the Sith Lord who murdered lots of people. Those who know about his redemption are small and personal. The rest of the galaxy doesn't know nor be willingly to forgive him.

Leia Organa lost her career as a Senator thanks to her heritage and finds herself in a new war that was her son was partially responsible for. She does not want to be identified as the daughter of Darth Vader.

Ben Solo is Kylo Ren and killed his father. Do the math.

edited 11th Aug '17 7:52:36 PM by Shadao

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#2737: Aug 11th 2017 at 8:29:01 PM

My issue is less Rey's backstory specifically and more that it ties into this annoying trend that I've noticed in Hollywood in-general. Namely an obsession with making everything "mysterious," or trying to do "big reveals" whether it's truly necessary or not. A certain big blockbuster film that came out recently did this really poorly imo.

And people who defend this by basically saying that it automatically makes the story "deeper" or "more complex." And well no, not it doesn't.

For example, say her parents are "nobodies," or heck say that they're important in some way but we've never met them before, is it really necessary to keep EVERYTHING about them so secretive? To the point of not even giving her a last name? And then dragging it out for this long? Because you're kind of setting your audience for a payoff that's not really coming.

The only reason that I can see potentially for doing it this way, is if she's related to someone that we already know.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2738: Aug 11th 2017 at 8:33:52 PM

I don't think it was really pushed as hard as a secret until the people involved realized that the fans were latching on hard to it, at which point their language and response to the subject became more veiled and suggestive because they realized it was a self sustaining hype machine: it might be true, it might not be, but in either case why wouldn't you stoke it?

In the film itself, Rey's past is left unsaid, but not much more so than Finn's. The big theme with the both of them is that they're nobodies who had no one, but were affected by the heroes' legacy and drawn into the stage themselves.

That said, if the whole thing is a play for a big twist and more narrative weight, that probably makes her being a Skywalker less likely, not more. She's practically a Skywalker already with effective familial connections with most of the clan, so it wouldn't really shift gears much or add many more layers to her character.

edited 11th Aug '17 8:57:22 PM by KnownUnknown

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2739: Aug 11th 2017 at 8:56:44 PM

[up] Rey's story is not a nobody's story. Her missing parents angle is setting up a mystery whether people want it or not. There was no need to hide Rey's parents from us. No need to not give her a last name. No need for her to defeat a Skywalker on her first try.

Finn, we know all there is to know. He was FN-2187, a Stormtrooper number. He is not defined by his family because he knows what exactly happened to him and what his life has been before defecting. He is not longing for a family. Rey is. And she still longing for her family in The Last Jedi, make no mistake. It will never go away until she actually meets them.

Ezra Bridger is a better example of a nobody than Rey. Rose from the Last Jedi is a better example of a nobody than Rey. Ezra Bridger has a last name that confirms he is not related to anyone from the films. Rose is described as "not cool. She’s this nobody, this background player, which is what makes her interesting. She’s not the best. She’s not royalty. She’s someone who is just like everyone else.”

Why emphasize on that when supposedly everyone is a "nobody"? Clearly, Rey is not a "nobody" except by the definition of a Skywalker found in a desert planet.

And her being a Skywalker will be more or less dealing with the reality of her family. They are not ideal, not the people she had envisioned. The shadow of Darth Vader will loom over her, and she must realize what Luke had 30 years ago that bloodline does not define you. Only your choices.

edited 11th Aug '17 8:59:46 PM by Shadao

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2740: Aug 11th 2017 at 8:58:58 PM

In the film proper, her parents were "missing." They left her behind. She was alone, on a podunk planet scavenging for scraps from a ruthless slumlord. She was a nobody even more than Luke was, possibly even more than Anakin was, that's the point.

Likewise, Finn was kidnapped and separated from his birth family, molded into a blank slate with nothing and no one to call his own until he was a cog in the imperial machine. Who his real family is just as unknown as Rey's, and his need for companionship, even if he himself isn't as overt about it as Rey is, is a strong theme in the way his character is written. And yes, fans latched onto that question too - just less so: most likely because he didn't turn out to be the Jedi of the new trilogy (it was more of a thing before the movie came out) and because he's less linkable to the Skywalkers.

Fans leaping onto the mystery and the writers actively setting it up as an actual mystery arc in the script are two entirely different things, in a way similar to how hints use to justify shipping are sometimes just cigars.

And her being a Skywalker will be more or less dealing with the reality of her family. They are not ideal, not the people she had envisioned.

To be blunt, that's unlikely to carry an actual character arc at this point. Especially given that getting over her idealized notion of her family and accepting the surrogate family the Skywalkers and Finn give her is already one of the things she resolved about her arc in the first movie.

As for the shadows looming over her, they're already looming over her. She's Luke's first apprentice since his last one betrayed him for the dark side. She's potentially the last Jedi, wanting to enter an order that is perpetually consumed by darkness. Kylo Ren murdered the man who was becoming her surrogate father figure, and has an interest in training her specifically. And Luke is (apparently) jaded by it all, with her as the idealistic youth impassioned by who he used to be, trying to convince him that it's not all for nothing. All that is already there, like her connection to the Skywalkers.

Dealing with the shadow of Vader is literally the same exact plot Luke already had, so I'd hope they wouldn't just copy paste that one.

edited 11th Aug '17 9:07:02 PM by KnownUnknown

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2741: Aug 11th 2017 at 9:05:42 PM

[up] No last name. No reason why they left her. No scenario where it is a common occurrence. You are left with a mystery that is begging to be resolved. Anything less than finding out their identities is a cop out.

Rey is not a nobody. They know it. The filmmakers know it. Why do they bring up on the parentage? They encouraged it, which they know they would lead to severe backlash if the audience were misled. And she never resolved her parent issues in TFA. They say it as much interviews regarding TLJ.

A nobody's story can only work if the person in question is the average of average. A person with no special past OR special powers. Otherwise, she's the next Chosen One appointed by the Force. And I don't think fans would like that, not after PT.

edited 11th Aug '17 9:10:00 PM by Shadao

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2742: Aug 11th 2017 at 9:13:08 PM

No last name. No reason why they left her. No scenario where it is a common occurrence. You are left with a mystery that is begging to be resolved.

No, you're left with tangential plot details and backstory to set up the larger point that she's never had anyone. You could form that into a mystery, but as I said it's - at best - more of a plot bunny on it's own. Like how exactly Luke ended up with Owen, or the sordid events that led up to Jor-El sending Kal-El from Krypton - nice threads for prequels or sequels to explore if they want to but not things that outright require resolution for the story as given to work, because... well...

Anything less than finding out their identities is a cop out.

... the big lesson Rey learns in the climax of her character arc is that she needs to let the people who left her behind go, and focus on the future. Her finding out their identities at this point is literally superfluous to the plot unless some entirely new plotline new makes it important again, because the narrative has already resolved it as is. Not everything has to be fully and definitively explained for closure to exist - in fact in a story like this, the fact that in the end she still doesn't know but is okay with it is entirely the point (another movie that does something similar is the first Amazing Spider Man movie, which has Peter never find the guy who killed Uncle Ben but still move past it, such that the sequel has no need to even mention it, or on that note half of Batman's origins).

So no, it may be unknown, but it's not a mystery arc. And it may be unexplored, but there's certainly nothing that makes it a cop out of all things.

A nobody's story can only work if the person in question is the average of average. A person with no special past OR special powers. Otherwise, she's the next Chosen One appointed by the Force.

You're going to have to explain how this logic works.

The average hero in an adventure story is, strictly speaking, a nobody - especially in the kind of stories Star Wars hearkens back to. Small minded farmers who enter a larger world, simple soldiers who become warriors of destiny, slave who become saviors... or conquerors, none of these are tropes that haven't seen hundreds or thousands of years of use. Regular people, showing that they are capable of irregular things.

In no way does starting out as a nobody mean that a character can never have anything special about them. Nor does it mean that the whole way of introducing special things about them is by being the literal greatest Chosen One ever known. There's no reason to believe that the only options available to Rey as a character is "she's a Skywalker" or "she's no one with no ability to do anything important."

edited 11th Aug '17 9:28:24 PM by KnownUnknown

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#2743: Aug 11th 2017 at 9:23:06 PM

[up]Think is, with all those point rise in the first movie: the light saber of luke, Kylo wanting to find her and all that, who rey is and her arc are tie, her lack of parent is not some sort of nebulous plot point they left out, is related to the whole trilogy.

im a little bit with Zehpyr here: ether Rey is skywalker for the beginning or she is nobody who just happen to enter in the second biggest conflict the galaxy have ever know, but going with mystery arc about her parent is just pointless, which again it goes back to TFA deciding to be ANH 0.2

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
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Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2744: Aug 11th 2017 at 9:29:55 PM

No, you're left with tangential plot details to set up the larger point that she's never had anyone. You could form that into a mystery, but as I said it's - at best - more of a plot bunny on it's own. It doesn't merit resolution, because... well...

What's wrong with giving her a last name? What's wrong with showing the parents who abandoned her? Or even give her parents to worry about in the first place? The less you answer these things, the more likely a mystery is being set up whether you like it or not. There was no latching on, there was deliberation. You cannot make the scenario without a mystery in mind by mistake. Especially with J. J. Abrams, master of the Mystery Box.

If there is no mystery, the filmmakers have no one else but themselves to blame.

... the big lesson Rey learns in the climax of her character arc is that she needs to let the people who left her behind go, and focus on the future. Her finding out their identities at this point is literally superfluous to the plot unless something entirely new makes it important again, because the narrative has already resolved it. Not everything has to be fully and definitely explained for closure to exist. So no, it may be mysterious, but it's not a mystery arc. And it may be unresolved, but there's certainly nothing that makes it a cop out of all things.

No, that was not the lesson. The lesson was that Rey should stop waiting for things to come to her. She wants to back to Jakku for vain hope that her family will come back when instead, she should have searched them across the stars. She still wants her family, answers to her past. That has never gone away. You cannot simply get over it. Luke Skywalker still thinks about his father even when given an account of "what exactly happened to him" from his mentor. He never had closure until Return of the Jedi.

Here is what Johnson had to say:

“To me, it’s important insofar as it’s important to her,” Johnson says. “And I think it’s important to her in terms of what is her place in all of this? What’s going to define her in this story? She was told in the last movie that the answer’s not in the past; it’s looking forward. But she’s showing up on this island to talk to this hero from the past.”

That is not getting over her family issues. And for the record, Johnson had also mention how bloodline doesn't define people through the examples of the Skywalkers. Who are all blood-related.

As for the tired cliche of Skywalkers learning that lesson again...? What do you expect from the story that rhymes?

As for the Chosen One argument, let me put it this way. Rey stopped being someone is not special (aka nobody) the moment she displays Force abilities. She did not earn them, she was born with them as decreed by the previous films. That's what separates her from an actual nobody like Rose. Rey came from a nobody's background, but so did Luke and Anakin. They were not nobodies.

edited 11th Aug '17 9:33:27 PM by Shadao

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2745: Aug 11th 2017 at 9:32:19 PM

As I pointed out, they didn't leave it out - at least not in the Whatever Happened to the Mouse? sense. The fact that she doesn't know but has moved on is an actual part of her closure as a character - it's important that Rey get over that person question and take on other, more pivotal questions moving forward, and the story blantly does so.

Which leaves it ''open,'' but not unresolved.

This is what makes it more enticing on the fandom side than as an actual plot that needs to be explored in the story. The plot is done with it, at least unless they decide to reintroduce it with a new plotline, but Star Wars fans - and fans in general - abhor unanswered questions.

She wants to back to Jakku for vain hope that her family will come back when instead, she should have searched them across the stars.

... you're going to have to point out where in the plot we're shown that Rey's new objective is to search the galaxy for her birth family. This sounds entirely made up.

Also, that quote from Johnson is more or less exactly what I just said, just with less blather. Her lesson was to forego the past, and focus on the present and the future - who she is and what her place in the world is, not what place her family put her in. And she goes to Luke to find that, in the same way Luke went to Yoda.

edited 11th Aug '17 9:35:06 PM by KnownUnknown

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#2746: Aug 11th 2017 at 9:34:36 PM

[up] Again, she never closed that resolution. She was told that the answers she seeks lies not in the past, but in the future with Luke.

Her questions are still about her family and her past.

How much does Rey’s past matter — or is this a tangent fans have obsessed over unnecessarily?

“To me, it’s important insofar as it’s important to her,” Johnson says. “And I think it’s important to her in terms of what is her place in all of this? What’s going to define her in this story? She was told in the last movie that the answer’s not in the past; it’s looking forward. But she’s showing up on this island to talk to this hero from the past.””

edited 11th Aug '17 9:36:45 PM by Shadao

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2747: Aug 11th 2017 at 9:36:11 PM

Except they're not, because the plot doesn't mention them afterwards. While the rest of that is at least interpretation, to go that far is straight up assuming things that aren't actually in the movie.

For the second time, that quote from Johnson is basically my point, but without all the rambling that I do. I don't think quoting it repetitively is doing as good a job supporting what you have to say as you think.

Also, that quote from Johnson is more or less exactly what I just said, just with less blather. Her lesson was to forego the past, and focus on the present and the future - who she is and what her place in the world is, not what place her family put her in. And she goes to Luke to find that, in the same way Luke went to Yoda.

She goes to Luke because the path she has chosen for the future is the force, is already the Skywalkers, whereas the fixation on her family has been left behind. Having her actually wanting to search for them without addition cause would be to undo her character arc from the previous movie.

edited 11th Aug '17 9:39:26 PM by KnownUnknown

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Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2748: Aug 11th 2017 at 9:39:21 PM

Just like Luke's father? He was never mentioned again after Obi-Wan said Darth Vader killed him. That didn't stop Lucas from bringing him up again in the sequel.

And if one were to take the Force Vision as a clue to Rey's family, it lies with Luke Skywalker. That is where everything is pointing towards. A man we have no information about. A total mystery.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2749: Aug 11th 2017 at 9:43:54 PM

One of the initial things that causes Luke to become a Jedi, to want to become a Jedi, is because his father was one. It's left unsaid, but it's also not a plot point of its own - he doesn't dwell on his father's past, or even engage Vader on the grounds of having killed his father. Unlike Rey - who confronts her feelings about her parentage early on and resolves that plot point - Luke's big resolution of his father's fate, or what he believes to be his father's fate, is the big reveal on Bespin. Rather, Luke's father is primarily important in the first movie because he is part and parcel of Luke's Call to Adventure.

As a result, the Vader twist changes the scope of the plot by completely upending Luke's rationale for becoming what he is, harms Luke's trust in Obi-Wan because of the enormity of the lie, and fundamentally strikes Luke right in the existential kisser - it's a reveal that conteracts everything that has been built up before it, of which his father's identity is one of many things, and leaves us unsure as to where Luke stands going forward.

But as I said before, Rey on the other hand already has everything that would be added to her character by literally becoming a Skywalker. She's part of their family, she's part of their legacy, and she's actively taking on a role akin to being their future. If they were going to reveal it, it would likely have been in the last movie. At this point, it's too late for it to make a splash - all it can do is make what's surrogate literal, but it won't change the relationships she already has, won't suddenly make her enmity with Ren personal where it wasn't already (he already killed the man who was becoming a parental substitute for her), and if she becomes Luke's apprentice it won't make it her duty to defeat the dark side any more than it already is because of her position any way. It will strengthen what we know, but it only cements the direction she's already going in. It doesn't add anything.

A better comparison to the original trilogy would probably be Luke deciding to leave Tatooine after his aunt and uncle died, despite being reluctant to join Obi-Wan earlier. It's the moment where the hero finally lets go of their status quo and embraces The Call, thus embarking on the path that leads to the person they will eventually become.

edited 11th Aug '17 9:52:20 PM by KnownUnknown

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2750: Aug 11th 2017 at 9:51:46 PM

[up] If Rey is a Skywalker, she is in for a double whammy. The first is that Luke Skywalker is not the hero she envisioned. He is bitter, grumpy and doesn't want her around. That's a heartbreak. The second is that if Luke was the father she had been looking for, then he is not even the father that she envisioned as well. She lost her ideal father in the form of Han Solo and is stuck with an actual father that rejects her because of a past incident with Ben Solo, her cousin.

This is not a happy reunion for either of them. And she will have to deal with it and what it ultimately means for her. She would ask "Does being a Skywalker, one of the most famous Force users in the galaxy, change anything about her?" And her answer would be what Luke found out in Return of the Jedi. As less than she realized. Ultimately, Rey would have to resolve the shades of grey in the family she had always wanted but not what she had expected.

edited 11th Aug '17 9:52:46 PM by Shadao


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