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Unintentional Period Piece needs a threshold.

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SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#26: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:41:20 AM

Sure, many comics get dated when they try to be topical. I'm saying it's not really fair to say that using Communist villains makes a work an Unintentional Period Piece when the period in question lasted several decades.

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#27: Aug 28th 2018 at 10:11:03 AM

Several decades is appropriate for an era really, some older eras are several hundred years or more.

Eras have been constantly getting smaller and smaller as media has accelerated but still the 'cold war era' is still fully valid.

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#28: Aug 28th 2018 at 11:44:17 AM

So, should a dress that came from a controversial fashion brand make a film such as "Crazy Rich Asians" instantly dated? I still think it's a shoehorn.

That dress was pretty, though.

Edited by alnair20aug93 on Aug 29th 2018 at 2:50:35 AM

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SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#29: Aug 28th 2018 at 11:48:44 AM

I don't think that a single detail being dated should be enough to warrant this trope. This trope is for things that blatantly date the work. Plus, will the average film goer notice that the dress is associated with a controversial brand?

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#30: Aug 28th 2018 at 2:33:59 PM

[up][up]That "example" sounds totally absurd.

Honestly, I feel like a threshold is the wrong way to go as far as fixing this trope. The problem is less people jumping the gun on what seems dated than it is using literally any detail that can possibly be connected to the real world. A single freaking dress??

SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#31: Aug 28th 2018 at 2:54:36 PM

I feel like we need to establish rules before someone can add an example to the trope page:

1. A certain amount of time should've passed since the work came out. A year at least.

2. The reference needs to be blatant and impossible to miss.

3. It can't be a potential example. I've seen a few examples that boil down to "This is an Unintentional Period Piece because this reference will eventually become dated". The work should be dated at the time the example is added.

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#32: Aug 28th 2018 at 3:32:43 PM

I would say ten years at least. Society doesn't change that fast.

Not a reference. If there's just a single reference, it doesn't count. It needs to be about the overall tone and theme of the work. But they do need to be obvious.

Potential examples fall under the first point, as well as Speculative Troping. We shouldn't need to decide anything to remove those examples already.

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KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#33: Aug 28th 2018 at 11:52:29 PM

If it is an individual example that would go under something like Technology Marches On, Zeerust or '80s Hair. Unintentional Period Piece should be when all three are blended together in a pot.

In turn, any examples from recent movies should think very carefully about using the term "instantly dated," as that is probably a separate trope unto itself. It is implying that the work is obsessed with recent events and memes. The important question should be if Crazy Rich Asians will be seen as a "time capsule" of its era? In many cases, works may reference memes specifically to show how dated a character is, and "Grumpy Cat" can't ever become a "new" meme again.

Edited by KJMackley on Aug 29th 2018 at 12:02:39 PM

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#34: Aug 29th 2018 at 4:32:33 AM

[up] None of those are 'a dated reference that anyone who knew it would instantly point to the era that the work was made', That is a trope though.

What you are describing is just limiting this to the The Same But More which is bad.

Anything pointing to exactly the era it was made is a trope, an absurd amount of knockoff communist enemies in the work then you know its in the cold war someone is wearing a Hanging Chad costume cause of some recent event then you know its a 2001 thing.

Edited by Memers on Aug 29th 2018 at 4:44:52 AM

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#35: Aug 29th 2018 at 5:47:22 AM

'a dated reference that anyone who knew it would instantly point to the era that the work was made'

As long as it is intentional on the part of the creators, yes.

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KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#36: Aug 29th 2018 at 8:02:42 AM

The concept behind Unintentional Period Piece makes it an Omnipresent Trope, all works betray its' era in some fashion. A savvy film and tv scholar can identify a work simply by its cinematography style and quality of film stock. As a result it falls into a category that requires "notable examples." In essence, if the only thing that betrays its' era is '80s Hair then it's not a notable example. It needs to be extreme. Optimally, all examples should describe the work as a "greatest hits" a la the Cafe 80's in Back to the Future Part II.

Of course, I got to thinking that "Instantly Dated" would be its own interesting trope. Essentially that something in the work is circumvented in the time between being in production and when it is released. That's where the dress in Crazy Rich Asians would qualify, even if the rest of the film isn't an Unintentional Period Piece.

Edited by KJMackley on Aug 29th 2018 at 8:05:36 AM

SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#37: Aug 29th 2018 at 12:36:27 PM

I think calling the dress instantly dated still implies that the average movie goer knows about the fashion brand and the related controversy, which I don't think is the case. I only know about the controversy because of this thread.

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#38: Aug 29th 2018 at 9:26:31 PM

As long as it is intentional on the part of the creators, yes.
See these are all unintentional, thats the whole point of this trope. A work that is set in the here and now at the time it was made but pieces of it become obviously dated. Works using Comic-Book Time or Webcomic Time make these abundant.

The Dress is likely not this trope though since I am pretty sure it is intentionally trying to date the work then since the book is written 3 years after that whole thing.

Edited by Memers on Aug 29th 2018 at 9:27:25 AM

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#39: Aug 29th 2018 at 10:31:19 PM

^^ Trivia tropes by their nature are information and details that are not necessarily evident to EVERY viewer. Common Knowledge is a fallacy for a reason. In turn, give it a few decades and the whole dress debacle is no different than Pan Am Airlines as a sponsor in Blade Runner, even though they folded years later (which is always a danger of product placement).

^ I'm pretty sure Fighter isn't saying that the creators are deliberately trying to invoke the trope, but that the individual examples of why the trope counts are specific creative decisions. There is a difference between having a New York skyline Establishing Shot incidentally with the Twin Towers (or modern cars sitting on the street) and explicitly having Ferris Bueller wear a leopard printed vest as casual 80's fashion.

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#40: Aug 30th 2018 at 5:41:23 AM

[up] Correct. A deliberate creative decision to put in dated elements is a "period piece". The "unintentional" part of Unintentional Period Piece is a distinct idea — where a work dates itself without that having been an overt objective.

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Pichu-kun ... Since: Jan, 2001
...
#41: Aug 30th 2018 at 7:39:51 AM

Fashion Dissonance exists for very dated clothes, but it doesn't get used that much.

Jokubas Since: Jan, 2010
#42: Sep 2nd 2018 at 12:24:01 AM

I feel like the main confusion is the difference between something that was made in an era, and something that embodies the culture of that era. I don't think the former is much of a trope because, as mentioned, literally anything is going to have some sign somewhere of when it was made, because things change. It's the cultural element that, in my opinion, makes this worth having a page.

Having a clue as to when a work was made because of a skyline or film quality is incidental. Tropes like California Doubling and The Mountains of Illinois already partially rely on people not recognizing such details (or only recognizing them from other examples to begin with). It's having a work that revolves around trends (narrative or fashion or thematic) that were most popular at that brief time, is what I think really defines it as a period piece, and not just any piece from the period.

Perhaps an example of this distinction could be Star Wars. There are a lot of things that could help you determine when the original movies were made. But in general, they bucked a lot of era trends, and nowadays the franchise is seen as relatively timeless.

Individual entries can betray their era though, and I think comparing them really highlights those era-based elements. For instance, the Ewok movies are extremely 80s and share a lot with 80s fantasy movies. Then you have The Force Unleashed, which has a tone and character designs that were common in the 2000s, and are pretty obviously not something you would have seen earlier on in the franchise.

Edited by Jokubas on Sep 2nd 2018 at 12:34:17 PM

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
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#43: Sep 2nd 2018 at 3:38:35 AM

I wonder if it wouldn't be better to see what an example lacks in terms of showing what period it's from, rather than what's there. An Unintentional Period Piece would probably have most things showing when it's from, with less era-neutral content.

If everything, from fashion to music to conversation topics to politics, has a distinct period feel to it, then it fits. If only one aspect shows it, it probably isn't an example. A few aspects, and it probably fits.

Probably.

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SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#44: Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:45:26 AM

What do you guys think of making this a YMMV trope as opposed to being trivia? I feel like having this be trivia encourages people to look for topical references and things that date a work. If this was a YMMV trope, examples would only be added if people overwhelmingly felt that the work was dated.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#45: Sep 3rd 2018 at 10:29:22 AM

I find that people treat YMMV as, "But I think so, therefore it's an example."

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Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#46: Sep 3rd 2018 at 2:19:48 PM

[up] Yeah.

This trope is actually quite factual and not trivia either since that is behind the scenes stuff. This is right there in your face dating the movie when it wasn't intended at all to do.

Its got plenty of subtropes like Technology Marches On and such.

Edited by Memers on Sep 3rd 2018 at 2:22:04 AM

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#47: Sep 5th 2018 at 4:37:38 AM

Well tropes like Artistic License and Technology Marches On probably should be trivia tropes, as I feel that main page tropes should be about things that are self-evident within the work and don't require any external information to verify. Especially with the "Marches On" tropes, the tropes themselves can't apply at the time the work was released, and the same should go for Unintentional Period Piece. I similarly feel that all marketing-centric tropes like Trailers Always Spoil should also be trivia, as you can watch a movie without having seen any marketing for it, but that's a different issue.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
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#48: Sep 5th 2018 at 10:46:45 AM

That's also why I think they're trivia. They don't apply when the work is released, so it's not something inherent in the work. They're also not audience reactions.

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Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#49: Sep 5th 2018 at 11:44:47 AM

Now I dont see that as trivia, when it aired it was completely a modern / current thing so relatable to the viewer and something that is still a trope. Its related to product placement.

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
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#50: Sep 6th 2018 at 3:36:18 PM

"when it aired it was completely a modern / current thing"


That's the default for a story; it takes place "now, or just a few days ago". We trope when the work takes place next week or decades ago because they avert the trend of telling stories are "completely modern".

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