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Pick Up Arts: The causes of the fall, the hopes of redemption

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Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#51: Jun 11th 2015 at 3:10:18 PM

I suspect people desperate for a relationship are Older than You Think and it is only because of the internet and other media that they become much more evident.

Unlike other media, however, the internet is one that provides a home to these people. A home they can sit on and not have to leave.

Me? I don't have experience. I am such a virgin, that I don't even give a fuck.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
MarkVonLewis Since: Jun, 2010
#52: Jun 11th 2015 at 3:17:10 PM

Indeed, I suspect back in the day the socially awkward men could replace charm with skill with a sword and go out pillaging and cart off a wife. That's probably 1/3 of why people went a-raiding, that, money, and anger. tongue

edited 11th Jun '15 3:17:35 PM by MarkVonLewis

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#53: Jun 11th 2015 at 3:34:37 PM

Now we're at a point where some are advised to tell themselves "I am the prize". Which is also backwards, replacing one problem, treating women as a prize to be won, with another, acting like one's God's gift to women.

The correct answer seems to be: there is no prize, no goal, no victory condition. There's only an experience. Make sure it's a good one. Now. Go. Have. Fun!

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#54: Jun 11th 2015 at 5:03:22 PM

Again I think many see dating as exposing yourself into the point that if nothing happen or someone dosent show interest it means two things: ether you are doing wrong and you are a "loser" or she is stupid for not gettng you which mean she is a "bitch".

So as you said[up] something thing just happen naturaly, not matter how much you do, that person can still said no....and that is a natural thing to happen, it dosent mean she is bad(also she could be depending how she said it but that is diferent)or that one is stupid for even trying, just a thing....

it cant be that hard to understand, dosent it?

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Beholderess from Moscow Since: Jun, 2010
#55: Jun 11th 2015 at 8:25:34 PM

I would say that if you leave negging, boundary violation, basic disrespect, manipulation, douchy behavior, treating women as objects, only paying enough lip service to consent to avoid going to jail etc out of PUA, then all you are left with is "be confident and try to present your best self", which is your big standard dating advice that hardly deserves a special name

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common
probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#56: Jun 11th 2015 at 11:39:56 PM

By and large, I tend to think poorly about this "art", but I tend to be OK with the variation whose main purpose is to find someone to settle down with.

I guess it just depends if the target is appropriate. People who just want to have one night stands with people who also want to have one night stands is OK.

It's when (casual-type relationship) people deliberately misled those who are looking for serious relationships, that's a big problem. It's basically a con.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#57: Jun 12th 2015 at 12:24:02 AM

[up]Then there's the reverse.

And then there's when you just wanted to get a one night stand and find yourself falling in love.

Intimacy is very hard to box, contain, or plan out.

[up][up]I think that it's fair to say that some people need to be encouraged, coached, and advised before sending them to play. Otherwise chances are that they will just hurt themselves, and others.

Dating is like dancing: you need consent and spontaneity, but you also need some skill, and some fitness to carry it out. Not to mention, confidence, otherwise at best you'll dance stiffly, and at worst you'll choke.

Say, who here watches Steven Universe?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#58: Jun 12th 2015 at 8:49:28 AM

[up]Pretty much, the issue I have with people against PUA is that "being honest" is good....but that it, if feel more like a typical 90 aseop, into the point you can almost here "and knowing is half of the battle!" hugggh

And of course your comparation with dance it actually good, since I cant dance at allevil grin

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#59: Jun 12th 2015 at 10:43:42 AM

[up]Thing is, cliche as those things are to say, the reason they're constantly brought up is because people somehow always forget about them.

Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#60: Jun 12th 2015 at 11:10:39 AM

Second, I am profoundly skeptical of any movement that implies that there is a recipe/formula/art to "attracting a member of the opposite sex". The whole idea is inherently objectifying and I don't see how to make it otherwise.

IMHO PUA is irredemably flawed, and the sooner people forget about it the better. The whole premise is based on the assumption that "Person A has to do something to Person B" in order to get person B to have sex with them. As Fighteer said, it's inherently objectifying.

I would say that if you leave negging, boundary violation, basic disrespect, manipulation, douchy behavior, treating women as objects, only paying enough lip service to consent to avoid going to jail etc out of PUA, then all you are left with is "be confident and try to present your best self", which is your big standard dating advice that hardly deserves a special name

Pretty much this. There's not really much to salvage.

It is entirely possible (likely, even) that we seriously neglect training young adults in how to have healthy relationships, but the human species has been increasing in population for hundreds of thousands of years, so clearly something is working and continues to work.

Historically, most of those barely counted as relationships, if at all. The kind of reciprocal support we look for today has only really been in vogue the last few centuries, and ironically, you can thank the Puritans for a good part of that. The insane growth we see today comes largely from central Africa and the Middle East under decededly unhealthy circumstances.

As for the HR parallels, that's why I love programming jobs where you're interviewed by other programmers. We're much more straightforward.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#61: Jun 12th 2015 at 11:23:50 AM

As for the HR parallels, that's why I love programming jobs where you're interviewed by other programmers. We're much more straightforward.

Personnel rotation at their hands is god awful though. Safer at the hands of those who know it.

Same goes for whomever goes around teaching social skills.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#62: Jun 12th 2015 at 4:15:32 PM

Personnel rotation?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#63: Jun 12th 2015 at 7:08:03 PM

The insane growth we see today comes largely from central Africa and the Middle East under decededly unhealthy circumstances.

Honestly, whether or not there's net population increase (and just by how much) is how I decide which sexism-related battles to invest (very limited time & energy) in these days.

At least the sexist assholes in first world countries have to watch out for DNA testing and child support payments. A long time ago, I even reached the decision that I would prefer inequality in women's favor because they're the ones who can get pregnant.

When it comes to population and sexism, it's such a tragic mess that even I have to unwillingly agree that the Chinese and Indian families who commit female infanticide is probably doing those babies a favor.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#64: Jun 12th 2015 at 7:42:07 PM

[up]やりすぎ

Infanticide was for their own benefit. "Girls are troublesome," they said. (Actually they literally said "A daughter is an enemy of the tribe!") The logical extreme of patriarchy, when women are so extremely disadvantaged that female offspring are considered to be better off dead. A wonder their societies didn't collapse.

Tonight I was at a party and waitress tried to hit on me. I was completely oblivious and responded with something entirely off-topic. This was Cringe Comedy for the entire table, who were amazed at the bluntest rejection they'd ever seen, and embarassed on the poor girl's behalf.

I wish I'd been able to identify that come-on for what it was, and at least been able to choose how to react. Now I've embarrassed someone out of sheer ignorance.

This is when PUA would have come in handy. Basic skill: the ability to recognize an invitation when it's offered. A bit more advanced: the ability to choose quickly what to do about it, and act on one's choice without fear or embarrassment.

edited 12th Jun '15 7:43:29 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#65: Jun 12th 2015 at 7:46:46 PM

[up] Perhaps I'm being uncharitable, but isn't the whole point of PUA to approach, not to be approached?

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#66: Jun 12th 2015 at 7:57:32 PM

[up]Wha—b-but that's crazy! I know there's some folks who believe No Guy Wants to Be Chased, but that's a preposterous attitude to have! Seduction is a mutual back-and-forth!

Oh.

Wait.

Look. Okay, look. Folks, I beg of you. Please, for the love of goodness, freaking please stop assuming the worst our of people who want to figure out the basic rules to the dance called seduction. We can't have a productive conversation if you assume bad faith and evil intent. We just can't. You need to show a little bit of optimism, here, a little bit of trust.

Now.

Now, back on topic. Is it, or is it not a good thing, to know how to identify when one is being hit on, and to be able to quickly determine what one can and should do about it?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#67: Jun 12th 2015 at 7:58:21 PM

[up][up] Yeah that's how I understand it. I think that's the difference here, for most of us PUA isn't about the stuff you're talking about Handel, the stuff you're talking about is dating understanding and experience.

[up] He's not assuming bad faith, he's taking the term as he understands it and finding that it doesn't match how you're using it.

Yes what you're taking about is a good talent, but as I (and several others it seems) understand PUA it has nothing to do with PUA, it's part of learning about romantic interaction, not pick up art.

You keep acting like seduction/romantic interaction is interchangeable with PUA, for most of us that's now how the terms are understood.

edited 12th Jun '15 8:02:36 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#68: Jun 12th 2015 at 8:02:18 PM

The label PUA has become too toxic, Handle. Like MRA, it got tainted by douchebags and scumbags.

It's a sad fact. Is there a term that could replace PUA? Because what you're saying seems like what Silasw said.

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#69: Jun 12th 2015 at 8:04:08 PM

I refuse to categories "basic awareness of other people's romantic interests" under Pick Up Arts.

That would be categorizing a huge chunk of socialization skills under an "art" with very bad reputation.

edited 12th Jun '15 8:04:51 PM by probablyinsane

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
MarkVonLewis Since: Jun, 2010
#70: Jun 12th 2015 at 8:20:49 PM

Honestly, to quote a buddy: "I believe most men are really just trying to relate to women, they just don't know how."

Granted the PUA scene is nowhere near the answer, but truly... society doesn't really teach people (men and women both) how to relate to, and interact with, the opposite sex. Thus, you have idiots like the PUA "gurus" peddling their bullshit to desperate people who really don't know any better and are just looking for a way out of the darkness.

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#71: Jun 12th 2015 at 8:39:24 PM

freaking please stop assuming the worst our of people who want to figure out the basic rules to the dance called seduction. We can't have a productive conversation if you assume bad faith and evil intent. We just can't. You need to show a little bit of optimism, here, a little bit of trust.
Whoa, hold on. I can understand and empathize with the people who want to understand and do better at social interaction. It's not exactly something I'm amazing at myself. But my understanding is that PUA are about finding someone you find attractive and then using psychological warfare to break down their resistance and acquire dodgy consent to sex. My previous comment was not meant to be disparaging towards you, but towards PUA 'gurus' who tend to be nigh-universally looked down upon because they're not trying to teach people how to navigate any stage of a relationship, they're claiming they can teach lonely guys the cheat code to the sex minigame.

I thought it would be obvious that yes, learning to recognize when someone is attracted to you, and how to handle that, is good knowledge for everybody to have. Not everyone can easily recognize when someone is attracted to them, even if it's glaringly obvious to everyone else around them (as you said was the case with your table of people). I'm not even sure that's something that can be taught, since people display their attraction in different ways, and it's certainly not productive to treat every encounter as if they are potentially attracted to you!

edited 12th Jun '15 8:42:37 PM by BlueNinja0

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#72: Jun 12th 2015 at 9:13:23 PM

Blergh at PUA. Just (try) to do what this article says.

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-be-more-likable-2015-3

1) Be genuinely interested in others.

2) Smile.

3) Remember people that you meet.

4) Encourage people to talk about themselves.

5) Be aware of their interests.

6) Make others feel important - in a genuine way.

Btw, if you ain't "genuinely" interested in the other person. You just want to take advantage of them (without equivalent exchange and so forth), just do the other person a favor - and leave them be.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#73: Jun 13th 2015 at 1:04:59 AM

[up]Yes, that's almost lifted verbatim from the classic How to Win Friends And Influence People, if memory serves. One of my favourite books, back when I was so socially unskilled I couldn't make friends or get people to do things, even things for their benefit, to save my life. That was a great book, helped me a lot.

Okay. I'm actually beginning to understand that what I'm talking about isn't what's commonly understood by PUA, even by the founders. Rather, I thought PUA would be a path towards acquiring this skill, until, again, I got disenchanted with what I saw in practice, hence the idea of "redeeming" it.

Okay.

So, how do we call these "basic romantic skills" that I'm looking for?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#74: Jun 13th 2015 at 7:02:17 AM

[up]How about "Basic Romantic Skills"? Call 'em what they are.

It's worth noting that "redeeming" a term is very difficult. I think it's a shame, personally, that "Men's Rights Activist" is a bad word now, but there'd be no sense in my trying to change that. Once people associate a term with something very negative, it's time to ditch that term.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#75: Jun 13th 2015 at 7:19:27 AM

[up]And MRA is such a good expression too... *Sigh* Ahmen to that.

Very well. I hereby declare the foundation of the concept of Basic Romantic Skills (BRS), an attempt to systematically gather and structure the theoretical foundations and practical skills needed to help individuals of any gender help themselves achieve a healthy, satisfying, and fruitful romantic and sexual life.

How's the wording?

Also, should that be a new thread, or should we rename this one?

And what concept should we start with? I'd suggest having a look at those sex-ed classes that are so much more effective than the technical/biological kind because they address power dynamics and gender roles and such. The full content can apparently be found here: It’s All One Curriculum: Guidelines and Activities for a Unified Approach to Sexuality, Gender, HIV, and Human Rights Education.

Also, wait, BRS is a bit, I dunno... how about Romantic Education, to complement Sexual Education? Rom-Ed?

Here's a cool place to start, before even the first approach: "How to Handle Crushes"

edited 13th Jun '15 7:19:46 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

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