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Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#201: Sep 6th 2015 at 8:03:50 PM

I think Silver would count as a crazy guess since his character has never shown in the show and he's supposed to be a teenager (or around that).

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#202: Sep 6th 2015 at 8:07:20 PM

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Silver_(anime)

That is the Silver the original entry talked about. The reactions he has to the mention of Ash by Ritchie are the evidence some fans use as proof he's his dad.

edited 6th Sep '15 8:09:42 PM by VeryMelon

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#203: Sep 6th 2015 at 8:09:35 PM

Oh. That's totally reasonable.

A note should probably be provided for clarity.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#204: Sep 6th 2015 at 8:11:51 PM

I can do that.

  • A very large number of people have speculated on the identity of Ash's father for years. The theories and evidence offered up for proof of one candidate tend to swing from reasonable(Giovanni,Silver) to really out-there(Prof. Oak, Lugia!).

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#205: Sep 6th 2015 at 9:57:18 PM
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#206: Sep 9th 2015 at 12:04:05 PM

Cut Love to Hate from Hunter J's entry and I think we're good to go.

Retloclive from Maryland Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
#207: Sep 10th 2015 at 6:58:45 AM

Been awhile since the last major edit, so here's the next section that caps off the rest of the f YMMVs. smile

  • Fanon Discontinuity:
    • The fact Ash was confirmed to still be 10 years old at the start of the Black and White era is NOT accepted by anyone who believes Ash is just in a slow aging process (Example: Ash aging one year for every three years of real life).
    • The anime is often ignored when franchise-wide canon is discussed due to the amount of Critical Research Failure, Plot Holes, and Ass Pulls it contains. Citing the anime as a source for anything (like saying Legendaries are able to breed in the overarching canon because a Lugia in the anime had a child) is often frowned upon. This is one of the various reasons why some fans dislike the Pokémon elements in Super Smash Bros., despite being misinterpreted: especially from Brawl onwards, Smash has been mostly faithful to the games instead in terms of canon, only retaining Pokémon voices and personalities from the anime (and, before Brawl, a few anime cameos and trophies).
  • First Installment Wins:
    • The best remembered season is the one with the best-remembered theme song.
    • Older fans tend to defend the first season (and occasionally the Orange Islands/Johto seasons that are a part of the same series) as legitimately good or at least an enjoyable Guilty Pleasure compared to the later seasons, due to them not having as strict of an adherence to the formula. The formula is still there, just not as blatant as later on in the show's lifetime. Justified, as Takeshi Shudo was working on the show at the time, and was one of the few people ever involved with the Pokémon anime who made a widely-acknowledged effort to entertain fans of all ages and to avoid the Animation Age Ghetto.
    • The Pokémon Company International seems to have finally acknowledged this. When it came to make a dub opening for the first season of the XY series, they simply did a new cover of the original theme.
  • Foe Yay: Any set of rivals is probably going to have this.
  • Fountain of Memes: Brock, Team Rocket, Gary Motherfucking Oak.
  • Franchise Original Sin:
    • The Black and White series was initially rather well-recieved by the Western fandom when it first aired, due to its brisk pacing and the B-Plot involving Team Rocket igniting people's interest - a fact which is largely forgotten since the Ending Fatigue at the end. Fact is that many of its problems were apparent from the start - Ash was rebooted to an Idiot Hero, Cilan and (especially) Iris were divisive supporting characters, Team Rocket's narrative was a drastic change in characterisation, the Team Plasma plotline wasn't immediately launched and finally the pacing was in any ways too fast (with Ash building his team at a rate that made the Original Series jealous and the badge quest skimming over the larger roles of the Gym Leaders in the games). The anime had a lot of Foreshadowing which suggested that all this was part of a larger plan and Story Arc (such as Iris getting development into a Dragon Master and Axew evolving), but in the latter half of the season it became apparent that these would not be coverednote ; by the end the problems with the BW series had largely overtaken the potential-but-untapped strengths, and the fanbase was ready to decry it as a Dork Age.
    • Similarly, the problems of the other Dork Age, Johto, actually had their roots in the Orange Islands arc that directly preceded it, namely increasingly formulaic filler episodes, unmemorable characters of the day, and the GS Ball as a supposed important plot element that was constantly put on hold from paying off (was there any real reason for Ash to go through the Orange League competition rather than head straight back to Kanto to give the GS Ball to Professor Oak?)
    • One of the main criticisms Black and White gets is that Ash caught too many Pokemon in too short a time for the writers to properly characterize. But this practice had its beginnings in Kanto right from the moment Ash caught Krabby. This is more justified though, because back then the anime was fully adhering to the franchise's original premise of Gotta Catch Them All.
  • "Funny Aneurysm" Moment:
    • The Advanced Generation episode Shaking Island Battle! Dojoach VS Namazun!! had a Whiscash cause an earthquake, trapping Ash and his friends. One week before the episode was set to air, the Niigata region of Japan was struck by an earthquake and the episode was permanently shelved. A month and a half after that in the Indian Ocean...
    • Due to Japan being quite prone to earthquakes in general, moves that involve either a realistic earth-shaking effect or having a name reminiscent of said Natural disaster (Earthquake, Fissure and Magnitude) were banned from ever being used in the future after the 2004 Niigata earthquake - probably to minimise the risk of Harsher in Hindsight and Too Soon kicking in for local viewers (now moreso than ever, given the now-infamous controversy with the perma-shelved Rocket/Plasma two-parter of BW).


Most blatant examples I see right off the bat are the ZCEs for Foe Yay and Fountain of Memes. And the first example for Franchise Original Sin might be a bit too long.

edited 10th Sep '15 7:00:39 AM by Retloclive

RLL
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#208: Sep 10th 2015 at 7:09:12 AM

We weren't done with the E section yet.

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#209: Sep 10th 2015 at 9:34:30 AM

The Es were pretty minimal in terms of changes, but yeah please wait until we make them before moving on.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#210: Sep 10th 2015 at 9:48:51 AM

I just made the changes now.

Retloclive from Maryland Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
#211: Sep 10th 2015 at 10:07:22 AM

Ah. Guess it was just a slow weekend then.

RLL
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#212: Sep 10th 2015 at 1:00:11 PM

I remember writing that second Fanon Discontinuity a long time ago and it's pretty much a Single-Issue Wonk. If there are more people who share that sentiment we can keep it, but otherwise I'd say it's a safe deletion.

The first and second First Installment Wins points should be merged and rewritten to specify that the Indigo League is the most fondly remembered (read: little to no Broken Base) and is the one that is most ingrained into pop culture. The last one can either be deleted for being Natter or merged into that one bullet.

Foe Yay and Fountain of Memes are definitely Zero Context and need expansion. Foe Yay as is could just be deleted while Foutain Of Memes is definitely a keeper for Brock and Gary (I don't know of any memes related to anime Oak).

Franchise Original Sin as a whole needs some rewriting, reordering to be chronologicalnote , and some shortening.

"Funny Aneurysm" Moment is fine as is.

edited 10th Sep '15 1:00:23 PM by Karxrida

Retloclive from Maryland Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
#213: Sep 10th 2015 at 2:18:59 PM

For Accidental Innuendo, a portion of the new Ditto example got deleted due to the changes made to Memetic Sex God. Might want to look back on it.

RLL
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#215: Sep 11th 2015 at 5:25:24 PM

Somebody added an Evil Is Cool entry about Mewtwo. The entry admits Mewtwo isn't evil, so it looks like a shoehorn to me.

Thoughts?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#216: Sep 11th 2015 at 6:29:56 PM

If he's not evil, he's not an example.

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#217: Sep 12th 2015 at 7:59:24 AM

Antagonist =/= Evil. Jerkass =/= Evil. I say cut the example.

edited 12th Sep '15 7:59:58 AM by MorningStar1337

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#218: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:41:07 AM

Regarding the lock request on this page, I must ask, on which basis can examples be excluded by this thread? We don't judge the merits of opinions, generally.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#219: Sep 15th 2015 at 4:09:35 AM

[up] Regarding the Mewtwo example, the entry contradicts itself by claiming that Mewtwo isn't evil.

As for the edit lock request...that seems to be news to me.

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#220: Sep 15th 2015 at 1:15:59 PM

I was getting tired of people ignoring this thread when making edits, despite us linking to this thread multiple times in edit reasons and having that hidden edit note that tells you about the link I left in the discussion page. We've had changes to our edits and additions without anybody coming here to clear it with us, plus the bad example for Mewtwo. The lock would also encourage people to come here and help out, which I feel would be beneficial since we'd have more people who care about the shownote  to help out.

~Septimus Heap, we delete/exclude examples for not following YMMV trope definitions (we've had a lot of those) or just being too vague to salvage. There's also one example that's a Single-Issue Wonk I wrote up a long time ago and wouldn't mind having deleted.

edited 15th Sep '15 1:21:24 PM by Karxrida

Retloclive from Maryland Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
#221: Sep 18th 2015 at 7:40:52 PM

This is probably why I wouldn't suggest/justify the need for a lock. This thread doesn't seem to stay active enough to the point that its unpredictable how long this will actually take to clean up the YMMV section.

edited 18th Sep '15 7:42:00 PM by Retloclive

RLL
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#222: Sep 27th 2015 at 3:13:51 AM

flamemario12 deleted the Nidoqueen baby entry without providing any edit reason.

Did we care about that entry?

edited 27th Sep '15 3:14:06 AM by Karxrida

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#223: Sep 27th 2015 at 6:30:59 AM

Yes. I just restored it now.

edited 27th Sep '15 6:32:15 AM by VeryMelon

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#224: Sep 27th 2015 at 5:10:26 PM

The anime is often ignored when franchise-wide canon is discussed due to the amount of Critical Research Failure, Plot Holes, and Ass Pulls it contains. Citing the anime as a source for anything (like saying Legendaries are able to breed in the overarching canon because a Lugia in the anime had a child) is often frowned upon. This is one of the various reasons why some fans dislike the Pokémon elements in Super Smash Bros., despite being misinterpreted: especially from Brawl onwards, Smash has been mostly faithful to the games instead in terms of canon, only retaining Pokémon voices and personalities from the anime (and, before Brawl, a few anime cameos and trophies).

This example reeks of fan elitism just by the number of negative tropes. Even if it is kept for some strange reason, it's going to have to remove a lot to feel like something other than Natter, as the Pokémon Anime has its own set of rules of how moves, abilities and other factor work as per Pragmatic Adaptation.

If there's any truth behind this example, it's that fans have a tendency to bring facts from several different adaptational works of Pokémon to back up their arguments as if they all belong to the same universe. Case in point, Red. Which Red are the fans usually talking about in fan debates like Ash vs Red? You will see people using Red's heroics and aging from Pokémon Adventures, Red's capture of 150 Pokémon and wielding Mega Charizard X from Pokémon Origins, Red's Pokémon team from the games, and the fan made interpretation of Red being a young adult Bishōnen badass with a combed down hair. That's the real issue there.

edited 27th Sep '15 5:12:54 PM by Shadao

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#225: Oct 4th 2015 at 12:01:18 PM

  • Family-Unfriendly Aesop: Paul's abuse of his Pokémon later gets downplayed as simply being "a different training style" than Ash, and that Ash should learn to respect their differences.
  • Fanon Discontinuity:
    • The fact Ash was confirmed to still be 10 years old at the start of the Black and White era is NOT accepted by anyone who believes Ash is just in a slow aging process (Example: Ash aging one year for every three years of real life).
    • The anime is often ignored when game-wide canon is discussed due to being a liberty-taking adaptation.
  • First Installment Wins: Older fans tend to defend the first season (and occasionally the Orange Islands/Johto seasons that are a part of the same series) as legitimately good or at least an enjoyable Guilty Pleasure compared to the later seasons, due to them not having as strict of an adherence to the formula. The formula is still there, just not as blatant as later on in the show's lifetime. The Pokémon Company International seems to have finally acknowledged this. When it came to make a dub opening for the first season of the XY series, they simply did a new cover of the original theme.
  • Fountain of Memes:
    • Brock's anime characteristics such as his fondness for women, being able to tell each Nurse Joy and Officer Jenny apart, having his ear pulled for flirting with women by Misty then Max, and eventually being knocked out cold by Toxicroak have all stood the test of Pokemon fandom time.
    • Team Rocket's various antics, costumes, and plans have all generated their own memetic appeal over the years.
    • Gary Oak doesn't just have his anime memes, but his game counterpart Blue's memes as well due to his large fandom.
  • Franchise Original Sin:
    • The problems of the first Dork Age, Johto, actually had their roots in the Orange Islands saga that directly preceded it, namely increasingly formulaic filler episodes, unmemorable characters of the day, and the GS Ball as a supposed important plot element that was constantly put on hold from paying off (was there any real reason for Ash to go through the Orange League competition rather than head straight back to Kanto to give the GS Ball to Professor Oak?)
    • The Black and White series was initially rather well-received by the Western fandom when it first aired, due to its brisk pacing and the B-Plot involving Team Rocket igniting people's interest - a fact which is largely forgotten since the Ending Fatigue at the end. Fact is that many of its problems were apparent from the start - Ash was rebooted to an Idiot Hero, Cilan and (especially) Iris were divisive supporting characters, Team Rocket's narrative was a drastic change in characterisation, the Team Plasma plotline wasn't immediately launched and finally the pacing was in any ways too fast (with Ash building his team at a rate that made the Original Series jealous and the badge quest skimming over the larger roles of the Gym Leaders in the games).
    • One of the main criticisms Black and White gets is that Ash caught too many Pokemon in too short a time for the writers to properly characterize. But this practice had its beginnings in Kanto right from the moment Ash caught Krabby. This is more justified though, because back then the anime was fully adhering to the franchise's original premise of Gotta Catch Them All.
  • "Funny Aneurysm" Moment:
    • The Advanced Generation episode Shaking Island Battle! Dojoach VS Namazun!! had a Whiscash cause an earthquake, trapping Ash and his friends. One week before the episode was set to air, the Niigata region of Japan was struck by an earthquake and the episode was permanently shelved. A month and a half after that in the Indian Ocean...
    • Due to Japan being quite prone to earthquakes in general, moves that involve either a realistic earth-shaking effect or having a name reminiscent of said Natural disaster (Earthquake, Fissure and Magnitude) were banned from ever being used in the future after the 2004 Niigata earthquake - probably to minimize the risk of Harsher in Hindsight and Too Soon kicking in for local viewers (now moreso than ever, given the now-infamous controversy with the perma-shelved Rocket/Plasma two-parter of BW).

edited 6th Oct '15 11:21:24 AM by VeryMelon


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