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backpack Since: Jan, 2011
#1: May 23rd 2015 at 7:57:52 AM

This is something I've been wondering about, and I was wondering if someone could shed some light on this. Why are the Hells Angels able to incorporate as a "Motorcycle Club" (allowing them to sue the movie Wild Hogs for violating their trademarks), when as far as I can tell no other criminal gang has incorporated? Do they simply choose not to?

edited 23rd May '15 8:00:04 AM by backpack

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#2: May 27th 2015 at 8:14:35 AM

It's just a guess, but I think it might have to do with a lot of gangs starting out as neighborhood watches, protection groups or family things before they lose their way. Hells Angels on, the other hand, started as a motorcycle club, which are more likely to seek such things.

Buldogue's lawyer
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#4: May 28th 2015 at 7:26:37 AM

[up]

Bizzarely, they are legal organisations and clubs, but they engage in illicit trades, such as drugs and gun running here in the Nordic countries. The situation with the motorcycle clubs is very similar to the Japanese yakuza in that matter.

And even the cartels in particularly badly affected areas in Mexico have their own logos. Harnessing brand awareness is what they do, along with some terrorist organisations.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#5: May 28th 2015 at 8:50:45 AM

The KKK is an LLC.

Any group has the ability to give themselves various forms of legal unity and representation.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
editerguy from Australia Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#6: May 28th 2015 at 9:49:53 PM

[up]What about terrorists? Could jihadists form Death To America Inc. in the US? There must be some limit...

Although the KKK is already a terrorist organisation, at least historically.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#7: May 29th 2015 at 4:31:18 AM

The KKK is a hate group. There is a difference legally.

It all depends. I hate being so vague, but it really does.

It is similar to how private clubs, special intrest groups, and churches can be formed and protected to degrees.

To be a terrorist legally though, you need to be convicted of terrorism.

You are innocent until guilty here.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
editerguy from Australia Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#8: May 29th 2015 at 4:53:54 AM

How do you convict an organisation?

When you've got members of the KKK convicted of things like racially-based mass-bombing, it seems pretty insane to me that they're only considered a 'hate group'. But I mean, in any organisation, you could have people committing really deranged crimes and then argue 'it's just an isolated individual'.

What would be an actual basis for saying 'you cannot legally incorporate' or whatever, based on some sort of assumed (or proven?) threat to society? Is there any basis?

edited 29th May '15 4:54:13 AM by editerguy

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#9: May 29th 2015 at 5:24:49 AM

Depends on your state how state law handles it. However I can give you what can happen based on federal law.

federal charges cannot be brought against an organization, only individuals. An organization can be put on a terror watch list like the IRA only if they have been proven to actual contribute to activities legally defined as terroristic acts as a group with a group statement and purpose. ISIS is a modern example. Their group mission is terrorism.

If they have not been proven beyond a doubt to be terroristic activities, they maybe labeled a hate group. Example: White Revolution is basically the international little black book of racial supremacy groups. They only connect people. They do not engage beyond that. So technically and legally they cannot be considered terrorists because they don't actually do violent acts, they just help groups get in contact with other groups.

It is not illegal to hate. But it is illegal totraffic weapons and drugs. Many of the original breaks with the Hell's Angels, Aryan Brotherhood, CSA, and such groups were by the ATF: Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Bureau or the DEA: Drug Enforcement Administration. It was the ATF who fucked up Waco. But they did right in the CSA raid.

Anywho,

You get into drugs or trafficking, especially across state lines, it becomes a federal issue and states will defer to the feds because the feds have better reach and better tools in getting to these people.

Terrorism is a federal charge. But that is justifiably hard to prove. Easier to get them on lesser charges that still have life sentences and what not like murder or weapons.

Also, the feds cannot label what is or isn't a hate group. But they can label gangs like how Aryan Brotherhood is classified as a hate group but federally it is a gang.

We can legally label them a gang because it takes illegal activity to even become a member. Just like MS 13, Mongols, or the 18th Street Gang.

Terrorist is not a label the US likes to use against their own people too much mainly for moral.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
editerguy from Australia Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#10: May 29th 2015 at 6:51:17 AM

[up]Thanks for typing such a detailed response.

So I think this means that basically any organisation, no matter what kind of activities it is involved with, can on some level have a legit, legal front in the US, right?

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#11: May 29th 2015 at 7:08:30 AM

Freedom of Assembly is right there in the first amendment.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#12: May 29th 2015 at 7:13:21 AM

Legal representation, but also legal obligations.

Like by the KKK (and only one branch did this) going LLC, they have some rights like trademarks and branding. But they also have opened themselves to various accountability like tax audits and now formal complaints.

They can have their status stripped and face fines if they dont follow the rules of their status. Like how churches can lose their 501 (c) 3 status that exempts them from paying taxes if they fail an audit or are taking a profit.

So it is a protection that has to be established and kept with transparency and when it comes to hate groups or anything associated with them, the feds are breathing down their necks and just waiting for the chance to revoke their status and punish them.

They also open themselves to civil suits this way.

Example: If say the Hell's Angels uses one of my paintings for a patch, I cant sue "The Hell's Angels". I can only sue the individual people and even then I have to prove they stole my image or violated my copyright or trademark.

But if the KKK llc or some other officially registered group does it, I can take the whole group to court and you can imagine how successful I will be.

In fact, the KKK has two main divisions: The original group headquartered in Harrison and then the LLC in Camden. The KKK LLC can actually (and has) pursued legal action against the original branch of the KKK to get them to stop using certain images, writings, and what not because it is property of their branch or is hostile to their image.

The KKK llc just opened their membership to nonwhites.

So I am all for allowing these groups legal statuses as private clubs or whatnot because it allows for better ways to track them and come down on them if needed. It also cuts back on violence because they are under a microscope.

This is a part of my field of study so I can probably tell you more than you ever needed to know about groups like this

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
editerguy from Australia Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#13: May 29th 2015 at 5:41:02 PM

[up]Thanks again for such a detailed response.

I am all for allowing these groups legal statuses as private clubs or whatnot because it allows for better ways to track them and come down on them if needed. It also cuts back on violence because they are under a microscope.

Thanks for explaining, I was wondering about this! I see what you mean.

if the KKK llc or some other officially registered group does it, I can take the whole group to court and you can imagine how successful I will be.

Unless you suffer a mysterious 'accident' first tongue

Mopman43 Since: Nov, 2013
#14: May 29th 2015 at 9:11:18 PM

Its the KKK, not the League of Assassins; whenever they killed people, it involved big marches and burning crosses. They don't really do subtle. Not to mention how suspicious everyone would get.

LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#15: May 29th 2015 at 9:53:02 PM

The Yakuza in Japan is a bizarre, semi-incorporated version of organized crime. Complete with their own offices, signs, representatives e.t.c.

Though, granted, some crackdowns have been made the recent years.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#16: May 29th 2015 at 10:37:06 PM

[up] And they listen to authority — if the Police tell them to stop doing something, they do.

Keep Rolling On
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#17: May 30th 2015 at 3:35:03 AM

[up]

In a sense. The police, at least in the Metropolitan area, find it easier to work with the Yakuza rather than cracking down on them. If they keep their activities low key and make sure no disruption of social order happens, they can do what they want.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#18: May 30th 2015 at 9:38:10 PM

Which also gets interference from the Japanese courts being so reluctant to take anyone to court if they don't have a completely airtight prosecution. Naturally, that's difficult to do with the Yakuza.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#19: May 31st 2015 at 10:31:06 PM

Also, being a Yak involved in actual street crime is a good way to lose fingers. The Yak mostly do stuff like taxing the small-time criminals, business and corporate extortion, human trafficking, enforcement for real estate projectsnote , and other very, very organized crime stuff - the majority don't even touch the drug trade (though the biggest drug cartel in Japan is a Yakuza family). Not easy crimes to prosecute.

edited 31st May '15 10:32:23 PM by Ramidel

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