Duplicate Trope: Slave Galley

Though they are not entirely about the same thing, I would like to discuss the possibility of merging Slave Galley and Galley Slave, especially with the few examples on the former.

To depict a Galley Slave without a Slave Galley is almost impossible, so there is redundancy here. However, we cannot say the same thing visa versa, e.g. when a Slave Galley is shown with none of the cast members amongst the slaves. Do you see any point in bringing these together?

Merging these two also makes sense to me.

{nevermind]

edited 3rd May '15 5:18:43 PM by Madrugada

Read the two. Galley Slave's description is written as a setting trope. The descriptions are currently functionally identical with Galley Slave just having a better written one. They either need to be merged, or split better.

Ok, we've got opposing views

Here's my reasoning: You can have the setting be a with no focus on the galley slaves at all.

You can have a character who is or was a galley slave but with the focus on the character such that the setting could be any other type of involuntary servitude with no substantial difference in the story.

The often go together, but they are not freely interchangable.

^^ Then they (the definitions) need to be fixed. Not merged

edited 3rd May '15 5:18:15 PM by Madrugada

That's fair, but that's not what's actually on the pages right now. What's on the pages right now are two functionally identical descriptions with different names.

^ Either way, we need this thread.

edited 3rd May '15 5:17:01 PM by shimaspawn

I think it'd be better to rename Slave Galley as Slave Ship or something less interchangeable with Galley Slave, and plus broadening the trope a bit (from the very specific galley crewed by slaves to any kind of nautical method of transport or metaphorical equivalent of thereof containing slaves)

Slave galleys have a very specific association with slavery, in history and fiction, that no other type of ship has. The Royal Navy regularly press-ganged sailors, but that was much closer to informal conscription. Though as indicated by the description, this was only true from the late Middle Ages when free men could find better jobs than rowing.

I agree on merging. Combine the story elements of Galley Slave and the historic notes of Slave Galley. Only two examples on Slave Galley would not fit because they're not about slaves, but we could note that they take much of the same imagery.

I'm also of the opinion that this is a distinction without a difference. The presence of either one tends to imply the presence of the other, even if it's in a character's backstory or similar.

Yeah, I agree on a merge. Galley Slave seems to be the healthier of the two, with 49 wicks and 61 inbounds as opposed to 6 and 5 with Slave Galley.

Any part of Slave Galley that you want see salvaged before cut (except for examples)?

May I interject?

I think either Slave Galley needs to be the main name, with Galley Slave as redirect; or the merged trope needs a new name altogether.

Reasons:

• This is a setting trope, not a character trope. A slave galley being a common setting in fantasy and sword-and-sandal works. Even Galley Slave describes itself as a setting (e.g. see the "list of embellishments" which is just a list of common setting elements), at least in the beginning of the description. Slave Galley is a name that denotes a setting, Galley Slave is a name that denotes a character. But as I said, it's not a character trope.
• Alternatively, we can treat it as a plot trope. The plot being that the hero gets enslaved and turned into a galley slave. But then, both names are non-indicative. Something like Made A Galley Slave (subtrope to Made a Slave) or Working On A Slave Galley (sister trope to Working on the Chain Gang), or possibly Sentenced To The Galleys or Sent To The Galleys ("sentenced to the galleys"/"sent to the galleys" seems to be a common wording, and has been used as a pothole to this trope on Made a Slave) would be much more indicative.
• While 49 is more than 6, it's not really that big a number of wicks to impair our judgement on the trope's name.

edited 8th Oct '15 3:46:27 AM by Rjinswand

^ I am happy with that change.

That post included several options.

I'm in favour of Slave Galley, and defined as a setting trope where the story takes place. Characters that become Galley slaves rarely stay that way unless they're a Flat Character. Dynamic characters grow past that and don't keep it as a trait for long periods.

The last three paragraphs on Galley Slave are actually Artistic License material or Useful Notes about slave galleys. Should this be tagged onto Slave Galley or put somewhere else. I wouldn't want to see it go completely.

edited 28th Oct '15 5:09:35 PM by eroock

Analysis.Slave Galley is where I would think it belongs, so long as it relates the historical practice to the fictional practice better.

(I'm basically calling it a little rambly right now)

edited 28th Oct '15 5:22:40 PM by crazysamaritan

Both of these tropes are big mishmashes of other stuff, as you guys have said. Both of these pages seem to be trying to be every trope involving Slave Galleys at once.

I say cut 'em both and rework this into a plot trope, where a character is Made a Slave and forced to be Working on the Chain Gang, often as a means to make the character suffer and Break the Cutie and show off their stalwart adherence to goodness by being kind to other slaves etc. Does NOT just have to be just on a galley, working in mines and other places count too, but it can be mentioned that Galleys are particularly awful places for this to happen. It can be mentioned briefly (limit it to a paragraph) that this happened in real life at various times, etc. and the rest of the Real Life stuff should be moved to a real life example section or an analysis or useful notes page.

I also think it would worthwhile to YKTTW a Slave Powered Setting type trope, for vehicles/factories/technology that is powered completely by slave labor, if we don't already have something like that.

edited 29th Oct '15 12:03:00 AM by NoirGrimoir

^ This forum is stalling because of lack of ownership. Who's gonna do the leg work for that kind of revamp? I am aiming for a simple, easy-to-implement solution.

edited 29th Oct '15 4:24:33 AM by eroock

^I'd be willing to sandbox it, and then we can just cannibalize all the examples that fit from both pages and make them both redirects to the new page.

Alright. But first let's discuss this out. Working this into a plot trope will make lots of current examples fall by the way side. And how does the new trope contrast against Made a Slave?

I would also like to hear some more discussion. I'm just volunteering to help with the work right now, so we can plan on doing things properly and not just a slapdash fix that will come up again in a couple years.

Also, Made a Slave is literally just a character that was made a slave. Technically being a slave can be a cushy job, like someone's cook, or scribe, and you can even be the only one in someone's house, so that is very distinct from a Galley Slave situation. So this is a subtrope, really.

edited 29th Oct '15 10:20:35 PM by NoirGrimoir

Since Noir Grimoir hasn't come forward with a rework proposal, I will go through with the merge as following:

• Examples of Slave Galley and Galley Slave will be merged under Slave Galley
• Galley Slave will be made a redirect
• Chunks of each trope description will move to Analysis/SlaveGalley

edited 28th Dec '15 7:42:22 PM by eroock

I think the pic on Galley Slave will work for the final page once the merge is done, but if you want, go ahead and start an IP thread for it.

I went through with the changes:

• Trope page is Slave Galley with a redirect from Galley Slave
• Analysis/SlaveGalley holds additional information about why this trope is Artistic License – History for the most part.

Mod review.

Anybody volunteering to change the crosswicks from Galley Slave to Slave Galley?

edited 3rd Jan '16 1:40:05 PM by eroock