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Before making or posting in a thread, read the Trope Repairing Guidelines to see whether a thread you're considering making actually should be made, as well as what is and isn't allowed in an open thread.

This thread is a metathread for Trope Repair Shop discussion. Things like TRS policy, what is needed in a TRS opening post, questions about whether a certain topic is TRS-worthy and questions about why a thread wasn't opened go here.

Some guidelines for when/whether to use TRS:

  • If the trope is fine, but has some bad examples, feel free to clean them up or to start a cleanup project at Projects: Short-Term. Trope Repair Shop is for when cleaning isn't sufficient.
  • If you think there's something wrong with the trope that systematically attracts improper examples, start a discussion at Trope Talk. Use a Wick Check to see whether there's an issue present (and if there is, what the issue is). The following methods are two possible ways to do a wick check (though not necessarily the only ways):
    • You can go ahead with the Wick Check without a discussion if you know what you're looking for. While it's not mandatory, feel free to ask someone for help confirming that you got the issue and the numbers correct.
    • Consult the Wick Check Project thread to collect evidence if you need help.
  • Depending on a trope (or non-trope) in question, a wick check may be determined to not be required, such as for tropes that are not thriving (per the standards for trope health listed on the Wick page). However, there is no problem if you want to do one anyway.

For a more detailed introduction to this forum, click here.

For related projects, see Wick Cleaning Projects and the Wick Check Project.

For a list of wiki pages related to thread outcomes, see the following:

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 12th 2025 at 11:35:13 AM

Codafett Knows-Many-Things Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Knows-Many-Things
#10126: Jan 21st 2025 at 7:46:37 AM

I'm not too sure why the concern over offsite opinions. Is it really news that TVT has a lot of detractors?

Something that really needs to be addressed though is that the real issue with the liberal use of disambiguation pages and taking sledgehammers to popular tropes is that the other tropes that get linked in place don't really capture the spirit of the page getting swiped. Hartman Hips for instance was a body type descriptor for character designs, it's "replacements" are 2 for fanservice and 2 for comedy, which helps no one. A lot of the weapon tropes that got cut fall under the same umbrella, there isn't an organic way to add to a folder that so-and-so is known for using a certain type of armament and how it fits with their personality.

Another thing is that Kory's right about the point of the wiki being traffic, and nothing kills traffic faster than users feeling like their hard work has been ripped away with nary a discussion. Maybe we should do away with the TRS having "regulars" and make it more of an actual community effort. Like a big flashing banner on a page and a hard 7 day wait time before action is taken.

Just Having Fun
kory Admin (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Admin
#10127: Jan 21st 2025 at 8:10:45 AM

~Morgan Wick

The last sentence, or at least the "absolutely perfect" part, feels like a misrepresentation of my perspective.

No, it unfortunately represents your perspective quite well and thats the main problem here. You're so far off the mark its not even just the owners, the mods even agree with what ive been saying. That's why the mods themselves are right now working on new guidelines for TRS to follow to stop it. Do you think they'd be doing that if they were on your side of things? The mods always push back when they don't agree with the owners.

What I do care about is whether a page has a purpose, even if that purpose is just a place for tropers to have fun, and that it's useful for that purpose, even if not everything about it fits completely.

If its popular, then thats clear cut evidence that it's fun, otherwise it wouldn't be popular. If its a page people are having fun on, lets stop ruining peoples fun now shall we? A page existing isn't hurting you, is it? You are also under the false assumption that some pages being made exceptions will "hurt" the wiki or stop people from coming? Thats literally the opposite of whats happening. TRS is directly hurting the wiki by deleting popular content people enjoy and why all this is happening right now.

I note that "the owners"' (placed in quotes only because I get the sense this is only your interpretation of what they want) definition of quality is defined only in terms of what it's not: deleting "popular content" and being "overly restrictive". That's what I mean when I say they don't care about the quality of the wiki: they don't care what the wiki is as long as number go up. It doesn't matter what the vision of the wiki is or whether people understand what we're talking about or whether people find the wiki fun, interesting, or informative enough to stick around. If there's a number that says something is "popular", keep it; otherwise, do whatever you want with it.

Its more of a direct quote actually. They obviously care what the wiki is, thats why they bought it. They obviously care if people stick around and enjoy it. Like i said, TRS has been hurting the wiki with some of its decisions and why this is happening at all. You're just upset at the changes and trying to throw out any argument you can to dismiss what the owners and the moderators want.

To be clear, I think that, for the most part, we're fine with keeping "popular content" around even if it might be off-mission. It's when it starts to become a nexus of negativity, or an annoying in-joke that infests the wiki like a virus, or just doesn't have a clear point to it that the TRS regulars decide that enough is enough.

If some page becomes so negative here to the point that we have to start moderating a bunch of users then we can just lock it, something being an "annoying in-joke" isn't reason to delete it and not everything needs a clear point besides "people like it" or "its fun".

I don't think the current administration has any sort of "big picture". Part of the reason I was so reassured by the Fantasy Character Classes decision was that otherwise, if the wiki had a dissertation describing one weird trick that doctors don't want you to know for curing psoriasis, I wouldn't think the administration would care as long as it was drawing clicks. This hands-off attitude was actually a good thing at first, before the Unfortunate Events, because it freed up the mods and forum regulars to actually maintain the wiki as we saw fit, but now it's felt like the wiki's vision itself is only being tolerated. Eddie would have done this to support the broader vision; instead it feels like we're being told not to bother with it.

If something doesn't fit an actual trope page at all like Fantasy Character Classes, then obviously it can be moved as it was. The owners were only "hands off" because they owned several websites and had no other employees to work on it. If they knew TRS was mass deleting pages, especially popular ones, they would've stepped in years ago. And yes its definitely mass deletion between cuts and disambigs its been thousands and thousands of pages. It would be too much work to mass revert the disambigs thats why were just picking out the worst offenders and creating new guidelines going forward.

Edited by kory on Jan 21st 2025 at 12:35:22 PM

Now Monitoring Query Bugs and Query Wishlist
HalfFaust Since: Jan, 2019
#10128: Jan 21st 2025 at 8:11:50 AM

[up][up] I'm not sure I understand what you're saying there. TRS has "regulars" because those are the users who are consistently willing to turn up and do the work.

Hartman Hips, as discussed on the thread, was disambiguated because because it had an unclear description and inconsistent usage beyond "woman has big hips", which isn't tropeworthy on its own. Other tropes will likewise have reasons on their respective forum threads.

Edited by HalfFaust on Jan 21st 2025 at 4:17:04 PM

kory Admin (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Admin
#10129: Jan 21st 2025 at 8:20:03 AM

Hartman Hips, as discussed on the thread, was disambiguated because because it had an unclear description and inconsistent usage beyond "woman has big hips", which isn't tropeworthy on its own. Other tropes will likewise have reasons on their respective forum threads.

This is the main issue ive been talking about with TRS actions. Hartman Hips may not have been very clear and had some misuse, but people loved it and it was very popular. Its also one of the few pages that i saw some outrage over being removed on reddit as well as here. Because of its popularity TRS should've come up with another solution or left it alone. I believe we may also be reverting that one since it had some of the highest inbounds on the entire list of disambigs but ill double check with the mods.

Edited by kory on Jan 21st 2025 at 8:21:02 AM

Now Monitoring Query Bugs and Query Wishlist
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#10130: Jan 21st 2025 at 8:24:45 AM

Speaking of guidelines, I must point out that at no point does either trope or People Sit on Chairs include "draws ZCE", "is frequently misused" or "isn't interesting for me" or "vague" among their not-a-trope criteria. A big part of the problem is that folks want to cut/disambiguate pages when policy and guidelines do not. Sure, policy pages can ve wrong or badly written, but this isn't one of these cases.

In particular, tropes are defined by their usage in works, not by tropers' ability (or lack thereof) to use them properly. I don't know if Hartman Hips is a valid trope or if restoring it would be a good move, but I know that arguments based on wicks aren't the right way to judge tropeworthiness.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#10131: Jan 21st 2025 at 9:03:13 AM

I'll note again that it isn't like we just burn these tropes and say good riddance, if there's a solid concept in the rubble, we usually see a TLP draft pop up. Hartman Hips had people immediately trying to salvage certain ideas, those drafts just haven't launched. So it's not like we're not trying to preserve content when and where we can. I don't actually have strong opinions on Hartman Hips though, I didn't even really engage with the TRS as far as I remember. I'm just familiar with the multiple TLP efforts that spawned from it. If that one comes back, I'm kind of ok with that.

I have more passion for the weapon tropes, which also ended up spawning multiple new tropes to cover the same ground. Also, fwiw, a vast majority of the usage for those tropes didn't touch on personality - which was the problem with them (in addition to the fact that many, like Knife Nut, were all over the place in terms of usage and didn't have a clear definition to fall back on either). If people did care about the personality of the weapon users, the tropes might have stayed with some definition tweaks or something. But we can't define tropes if there isn't an actual pattern to them.

And, yeah, we try our hardest to get more people in TRS. People have ignored us so far and the other ideas we have require coding. It's not our fault if the same few users keep showing up, it just means that we're the ones actually interested in most of these discussions. I don't understand why we keep getting blamed for this issue, which has proven to be out of our control. In fact, the Hartman Hips discussion page will show you that people flat out ignore our banners only to complain at us after the fact - it's not on us if people don't pay attention, even if it's a trope they care about.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 21st 2025 at 12:41:48 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
HalfFaust Since: Jan, 2019
#10132: Jan 21st 2025 at 9:20:25 AM

At this point it seems like there's notable disagreement on what actually counts as a trope.

[up]x3

Its also one of the few pages that i saw some outrage over being removed on reddit as well as here.

While that is true, I thought we weren't considering the opinions of people off-site? There's a lot of criticism of Tv Tropes on Reddit, much of which I assume you wouldn't agree with.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#10133: Jan 21st 2025 at 9:24:55 AM

We had that spin-off thread here to discuss things like PSOC, but it didn't really take off. If we want to get into that conversation, it should probably happen there.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Codafett Knows-Many-Things Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Knows-Many-Things
#10134: Jan 21st 2025 at 9:54:29 AM

@ HalfFaust

I don't think you understand. Trope misuse is a very real problem sure, and we can fix it where we find it, but deleting whole pages over something that can solved with editing wicks is not a viable solution. The discussion was not handled well and that's why it's still coming up.

[up][up][up]

Some of the problems with TRS and the lack of new blood is the clique mentality that's been mentioned in this thread. That drives people away because they don't feel that any input is counted unless it's coming from certain users. That's why I mentioned trying to get away from the idea of having regulars.

As far those alternatives go, it's like you say: They haven't launched yet. Frankly I doubt they will because there's so much red tape around making direct replacement tropes. This is why we need to have a talk about whether the cuts are worth it in the first place.

I'm not one to beat a dead horse though, just want to get in my own observations.

Edited by Codafett on Jan 21st 2025 at 9:57:27 AM

Just Having Fun
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#10135: Jan 21st 2025 at 9:59:55 AM

Again, how do you get rid of "the idea of regulars"? Every area of the site has "regulars", there isn't anything we can do to force people to join TRS, and forcing people from staying out of it solely because we're involved willingly and often is super unfair and also not possible without literal suspensions.

Nobody is saying the need for new blood and new ideas isn't an issue, but it's an issue TRS has had since inception. What more can we do?

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 21st 2025 at 1:00:30 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
HalfFaust Since: Jan, 2019
#10136: Jan 21st 2025 at 12:15:19 PM

I do think people are perhaps being a bit too generous towards certain tropes. If they're so popular, users who like these tropes should be willing to come out and support them, and suggest ways to improve them other than just "leave them alone". TRS could potentially try and slow down to try and drag more participants in (somehow), but that doesn't seem realistic to do for every single trope and then you have to decide where to draw the line.

With Hartman Hips specifically, the alternative options that look most clear to me are: 1. Expand definition to just "animated woman has large hips", which I personally do not think is tropeworthy but obviously could be overruled on. 2. Clarify the definition (specifying what exactly this feature signals about a character, and/or why an artist includes it) and then have to either delete a bunch of examples and/or spin off another separate trope. 3. Leave it as-is, misuse and all.

Edited by HalfFaust on Jan 21st 2025 at 8:16:28 PM

kory Admin (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Admin
#10137: Jan 21st 2025 at 12:33:49 PM

While that is true, I thought we weren't considering the opinions of people off-site? There's a lot of criticism of Tv Tropes on Reddit, much of which I assume you wouldn't agree with.

True, i only mentioned it because everyone else keeps bringing up off-site opinions. So on that subject, if you or anyone else in TRS is considering off-site opinions, ive seen plenty of off-site out rage regarding the name changes and disambiguations and not a single positive comment about it. If you don't care or don't think it matters, welcome to the club.

I do think people are perhaps being a bit too generous towards certain tropes. If they're so popular, users who like these tropes should be willing to come out and support them, and suggest ways to improve them other than just "leave them alone". TRS could potentially try and slow down to try and drag more participants in (somehow), but that doesn't seem realistic to do for every single trope and then you have to decide where to draw the line.

With Hartman Hips specifically, the alternative options that look most clear to me are: 1. Expand definition to just "animated woman has large hips", which I personally do not think is tropeworthy but obviously could be overruled on. 2. Clarify the definition (specifying what exactly this feature signals about a character, and/or why an artist includes it) and then have to either delete a bunch of examples and/or spin off another separate trope. 3. Leave it as-is, misuse and all.

That's not how popularity works. Just because a page is really popular doesn't mean it will specifically spawn TV Tropes users nor does it mean itll specifically spawn people to come to its defense. And more importantly people do not need to come to its defense in order for the page to exist. The inbounds or view counts can also act as its defense if need be.

There should've been effort to clarify the definition or #3 should've been chosen. Misuse isn't some big evil thing and isn't justification for deleting pages. Regardless of the inbound count.

Now Monitoring Query Bugs and Query Wishlist
Codafett Knows-Many-Things Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Knows-Many-Things
#10138: Jan 21st 2025 at 12:34:55 PM

[up][up][up] There's a difference between being a regular in a Just For Fun thread or monitoring a certain page and being a reg in a forum that determines the QA and traffic for the entire website.

Maybe I misspoke. Obviously you can't get rid of regulars, but what needs to go is this illusion of authority that comes about when the same few folks are the ones handling the changes. We have mods, admins, and techs, but no one's input means anymore than anyone elses. That comes back to this discussion about how big the community is really compared to who posts where.

Edited by Codafett on Jan 21st 2025 at 12:35:29 PM

Just Having Fun
HalfFaust Since: Jan, 2019
#10139: Jan 21st 2025 at 1:27:50 PM

The admins' and the mods' input does inherently mean more, that's ultimately why we're having this conversation.

I think ultimately the best way to get rid of that "illusion of authority" is to have more people participate. Which yes, is something of a circular issue; again, any changes which could lead to increased participation in TRS would be much participated. But ultimately we can't consider the opinions of people who aren't saying anything.

Again on the specific example of Hartman Hips: Clarifying the trope definition still would have required deleting quite a few examples, which judging by the number of edit wars that happen here I suspect still would have caused controversy. Heck, even if you did broaden it to "animated woman has big hips" there were quite a few examples that didn't even fit that.

But anyway, that's just one trope, potentially useful as an example but we may be focusing on it too much. Similar to what I said in an earlier post: it feels like people don't even agree on what a Trope is at this point. And the more we ignore misuse, the blurrier the lines get.

Acebrock He/Him from So-Cal Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
He/Him
#10140: Jan 21st 2025 at 2:17:49 PM

I have a question: do the site owners see this site as a place for accurately and informatively documenting tropes and their meaning in fiction or just a way to make money (or both)?

My troper wall
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#10141: Jan 21st 2025 at 2:38:39 PM

Again, I don't see why we're being attacked because other people don't want to come to TRS. We don't think our opinions mean more- we're just the only ones giving them in the first place. Like, we want more people. But we can't make people join us. And we can't account for the opinions of people who don't show up.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 21st 2025 at 5:39:48 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#10142: Jan 21st 2025 at 3:03:25 PM

I know this is more a matter of Image Picking but if there will be a more "We dont have to with what a small clique wants." Can I suggest replacing Germans Love David Hasselhoff 's image that pretty much just amounts to some dialogue showing the trope in action and an uncomfortable depiction of Japanese people? I think that one was replaced by this clique and if the owners care about being more casual and with what users find fun, I would like to suggest the old image with David Hasselhoff in it.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
thatsnumberwang (Elder Troper)
#10143: Jan 21st 2025 at 3:35:00 PM

I think Kory nailed it a few pages back: the forums are an incredibly small subgroup of the overall population of this website. That will always be TRS's fundamental problem and why it needs reform to somehow include those people who never come here if the end goal is indeed to further community interaction.

I think that at minimum there needs to be something that flags up on the watchlist whenever a major change is considered to a trope that you are following - even something as simple as a red spanner alongside the title. Because right now, as things stand, a non-forum user has to click on said trope in order to know that changes are being considered. That's fine if you religiously check everything on your list but I suspect that a sizeable number of people do not.

I would also suggest a grace period for changes with a simple non-binding thumbs up, thumbs down voting system to gauge overall opinion and a rolling news feed - the latter of which is something that this site has been missing for a while imo. This is a very large and ever-changing site and the trope reports are spaced too far apart to really be of immediate use.

One for the next version of TV Tropes when it comes perhaps.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#10144: Jan 21st 2025 at 3:38:48 PM

The watchlist stuff is being worked on. It's one of the things I alluded to when I said we don't have any solutions that don't require coding. Because we already plug it on ATT and post notices on the trope pages, which is all we can realistically do right now. Once again, I feel as though people are acting like the lack of manpower and the small group of regulars is somehow the fault of the regulars, as if it's our job to get other people involved, despite that we're actively trying. Of all the problems, this is one that we've literally been dealing with for over a decade and there aren't really any ways to improve how we're handling it that don't involve coding updates and new features. We're all super aware of how small of a group we are and how it'd be great if other people joined in, but that's not something we have control over.

Like I said before, I've literally seen someone accuse us of not informing them of a thread while on a discussion page that was posted while the trope was still bannered, which means that they literally just never bothered to do the bare minimum (to get to the discussion page they would have had to go through the trope page anyway). This person stopped responding when I pointed out that the banner had been visible the entire time, including when their discussion posts began. At a certain point, it falls on the wider troper base for just ignoring our attempts to get their attention, not on us for not doing good enough or not having the tech to reach a larger audience.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 21st 2025 at 6:42:16 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
kory Admin (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Admin
#10145: Jan 21st 2025 at 10:54:13 PM

I have a question: do the site owners see this site as a place for accurately and informatively documenting tropes and their meaning in fiction or just a way to make money (or both)?

Its obviously both. But its clear TRS regulars think their opinion of what a trope is trumps everyone elses. As we've pointed out, the moderators don't fully agree with how TRS has been handling things or agree with some of their opinions/trope decisions either. So new guidelines are being drawn up right now so there's less confusion and less extreme nit picking. We can still be plenty accurate in documentation without being so restrictive we throw away perfectly good pages or pages people enjoy. I'm certain there's ways to strike a balance and maintain good accuracy while also keeping pages fun.

Edited by kory on Jan 21st 2025 at 10:55:44 AM

Now Monitoring Query Bugs and Query Wishlist
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#10146: Jan 21st 2025 at 10:55:55 PM

Sooooooooooo, in that case I can present my petition to have that one page's image changed back?

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
kory Admin (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Admin
#10147: Jan 21st 2025 at 10:58:25 PM

I know this is more a matter of Image Picking but if there will be a more "We dont have to with what a small clique wants." Can I suggest replacing Germans Love David Hasselhoff 's image that pretty much just amounts to some dialogue showing the trope in action and an uncomfortable depiction of Japanese people?

Well like you said i think this is a question for IP. I'm not 100% sure of how IP operates but can't you just make a thread and vote on it?

edit: side note, that picture is very strange and awkward. [lol]

Edited by kory on Jan 21st 2025 at 10:59:17 AM

Now Monitoring Query Bugs and Query Wishlist
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#10148: Jan 21st 2025 at 11:01:05 PM

Yeah, it's an IP problem. Not really something to discuss here, and FWIW even images chosen by IP can and often are changed if someone finds something better / has a good argument.


"But its clear TRS regulars think their opinion of what a trope is trumps everyone elses."

Dude, we don't. But we're the only ones showing up to provide these opinions, at least in most cases. Again, we can't account for opinions people aren't sharing with us. I don't think it's fair to boil this down to "TRS regulars are being arrogant", we regularly have debates on stuff like this at trope talk and TLP, but TRS threads just don't attract a lot of attention from the people who disagree with us. Which, again, is something we're genuinely trying to fix.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 21st 2025 at 2:04:47 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#10149: Jan 21st 2025 at 11:17:12 PM

[up][up] Thanks for your help. really appreciated, taking it to Image Picking right away.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
HalfFaust Since: Jan, 2019
#10150: Jan 22nd 2025 at 12:43:23 AM

It feels like this conversation is veering towards personal-ish attacks on the TRS regulars, which I do not think is helpful.

We can still be plenty accurate in documentation without being so restrictive we throw away perfectly good pages or pages people enjoy. I'm certain there's ways to strike a balance and maintain good accuracy while also keeping pages fun.

That is definitely the ideal, and I hope we can achieve that. I think it is clear from this thread that people are not necessarily convinced, especially in terms of prioritising popularity over accuracy, but we will wait and see what the mods come up with for the new guidelines.


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