TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Needs Help: Fragile Speedster

Go To

hbi2k Since: Jan, 2001
#76: Mar 20th 2015 at 5:45:44 PM

Except that a Fragile Speedster is defined specifically as "fragile," and a Stone Wall is specifically defined as "tough," so they're mutually exclusive. One can't be both at the same time. (Edit: Ninja'd by @AnotherDuck!)

There IS another option. I'm hesitant to bring it up, because every time it comes up you get a half-dozen people chiming in with shoehorned crap like "Paper Ram," but I think that something like "Weak Speedster"— a character that is fast but "weak" in the sense of "not strong, not offensively capable"— IS tropable, and I could support that idea going through YKTTW. That would create a place for characters that are offensively weak but fast, and either aren't particularly fragile or exist in settings where "toughness / fragility / defense" isn't a factor. It could overlap with Fragile Speedster in some, but not all, cases, the same way Glass Cannon does.

edited 20th Mar '15 5:50:28 PM by hbi2k

acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#77: Mar 20th 2015 at 5:50:16 PM

^ No because as you said t that leads down the rabbit hole of Paper Ram and the 27 trope variations. And that discussion can go a million and one different ways.

I would not support a separate trope for Weak Speedster in YKTTW.

edited 20th Mar '15 5:54:12 PM by acrobox

hbi2k Since: Jan, 2001
#78: Mar 20th 2015 at 5:52:06 PM

^ Not if you limit it to tropes that are one advantage balanced with one disadvantage. It's only when you start mucking about with three-attribute combinations that you get a bunch of crapola.

edited 20th Mar '15 5:52:59 PM by hbi2k

acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#79: Mar 20th 2015 at 5:54:31 PM

^ also that thought experiment breakdown of your Stone Wall Speedster worked on two attributes not three stats. I thought I made that pretty clear.

If the three stats exist use them. If they don't look for the archetype of broad speed vs broad power.

If you're not okay with broad power, why are you okay with broad speed?

edited 20th Mar '15 5:55:45 PM by acrobox

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#80: Mar 20th 2015 at 5:54:46 PM

"Fragile" means "easily broken, not durable." If the trope was "Weak Speedster" your argument that "weak" can mean either "not durable, fragile, easily broken or damaged" or "lacking in physical strength, unable to do damage" would be convincing. But it's not. It's "Fragile Speedster".

If a setting doesn't use durability as an attribute, then it can't have Fragile Speedsters, and that's OK — not every Competitive Balance trope has to be applicable to every game

edited 20th Mar '15 5:56:36 PM by Madrugada

hbi2k Since: Jan, 2001
#81: Mar 20th 2015 at 5:54:56 PM

"If you're not okay with broad power, why are you okay with broad speed?"

Because "power" isn't the way Fragile Speedster is defined. It's not "Unpowerful Speedster." It's FRAGILE Speedster.

Edit: Jesus, ninja'd again. Ha!

edited 20th Mar '15 5:55:24 PM by hbi2k

acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#82: Mar 20th 2015 at 5:56:44 PM

I'm not disputing that it is Fragile Speester. But what I'm saying is, it has often been used as Unpowerful Speedster in a mostly innocuous way, and was phrased as such prior to this dispute.

So why not acknowledge that innocuous Tropes Are Flexible reading?

edited 20th Mar '15 6:00:58 PM by acrobox

hbi2k Since: Jan, 2001
#83: Mar 20th 2015 at 5:59:24 PM

I disagree that it's "mostly innocuous." It leads to all kinds of confusion about whether a Fragile Speedster CAN have strong offense. The way it's defined now is much more clear.

edited 20th Mar '15 5:59:36 PM by hbi2k

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#84: Mar 20th 2015 at 5:59:44 PM

The one thing I can really see is something like an Evasion Tank, they dodge and dodge and never get hit but they hold threat on a target.

It was a valid strat for certain fights for rogues in World Of Warcraft and in Final Fantasy XIII it was Lightning's method of Tanking.

edited 20th Mar '15 6:02:54 PM by Memers

acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#85: Mar 20th 2015 at 6:02:04 PM

That's already included in Fragile Speedster because being able to dodge is included under broad speed.

If you want to get technical thats Fragile Speedster with attributes of Stealth Expert.

acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#86: Mar 20th 2015 at 6:03:35 PM

Also at hbi2k who is confused when you say that leads to confusion. I'm not confused. I dont feel like you would be confused either.

And the tropers arent confused because there are already 44 cases where people have used it as such without deleting at least 38 cases of your preferred use.

edited 20th Mar '15 6:05:34 PM by acrobox

hbi2k Since: Jan, 2001
#87: Mar 20th 2015 at 6:04:31 PM

And the ability to draw aggro, which AFAIK doesn't currently have a trope other than Damager, Healer, Tank, but could maybe use one.

But it still doesn't count as a Fragile Speedster unless it goes down quickly when it is hit.

As for the confusion, you displayed it yourself in the edit history of Competitive Balance when you continued to insist that Fragile Speedsters are "implicitly" weak hitters, despite there being no such implication in the definition of the trope.

edited 20th Mar '15 6:11:03 PM by hbi2k

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#88: Mar 20th 2015 at 6:17:06 PM

[up][up][up] Where in that did I say they were fragile though? Lightning is slightly more fragile than the rest in sentinel stance but she certainly isnt a Fragile Speedser in it, she can take hits without evasion up.

Equate the patterns then create new tropes around those patterns.

[up] Oh yes that is a huge issue.

edited 20th Mar '15 6:20:13 PM by Memers

acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#89: Mar 20th 2015 at 6:18:51 PM

^ You just said Lightning is 'slightly more fragile' than her peers now. Slightly, read Fragile Speedster, Playing With, Downplayed. Tropes Are Flexible.

^^ Implicitly as per its use around the website. As I said there are many examples of a broad reading that don't undermine the strict reading, including how it was phrased on the competitive balance page itself.

edited 20th Mar '15 6:22:53 PM by acrobox

hbi2k Since: Jan, 2001
#90: Mar 20th 2015 at 6:21:46 PM

^ She's still only a Fragile Speedster to the extent that she's faster and more fragile than her peers. Offense or lack thereof doesn't enter into it.

^ It undermines the definition insofar as it weakens the "fragile" part of the definition when examples are admitted that are not fragile.

edited 20th Mar '15 6:23:57 PM by hbi2k

acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#91: Mar 20th 2015 at 6:23:41 PM

^ Not disagreeing.

Edit per edit: With the first part.

The second part is consistent with site wide drift. It doesn't undermine in that it doesnt discount fragile examples. It doesn't call any fragile examples into question.

edited 20th Mar '15 6:27:17 PM by acrobox

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#92: Mar 20th 2015 at 6:26:02 PM

No, there are tanks that are even more fragile than her, she is mid range in that department, and everyone else just cant evade in the stance.

She just has less HP and does not get the turtle type skills the 2 out of 6 Stone Wall characters get, she gets evade. And anyone not in Sen stance will take a ton more damage than anyone in it.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#93: Mar 20th 2015 at 6:27:42 PM

Evasion Tank is pretty much the only shady element of Fragile Speedster I can see. It's a type of character that can, from a practical standpoint, tank as much damage by standing still and passively avoiding, just as a more traditional tank with high armour and health can just weather the damage, but from a technical standpoint, an Evasion Tank is not actually being hit.

As far as misuse and that dictating or changing the trope around, there's nothing that says that we have to change trope definitions around just because people are misusing it. People love adding tropes, and will shoehorn just to have a character or work they like present in the list. Just look at just about any Real Life section to see tons of shoehorning.

There's also a tendency for people to write "rare variant" or some such when it's not actually rare. They just like having a more unique example. Just like everyone else.

Check out my fanfiction!
acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#94: Mar 20th 2015 at 6:29:57 PM

@Memers all that still counts under broad speed and broad 'fragility.' And yes you should compare characters to their peers.

@Anotherduck, I'm aware. But drift and redefinition brought it to this point, and if drift is going the other way why not accept it for the time being, until at least drift takes us back. Let things evolve around patterns without cluttering the site with mostly redundant tropes because we're wedded to a strict definition of something that once had a broad definition.

edited 20th Mar '15 6:33:01 PM by acrobox

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#95: Mar 20th 2015 at 6:37:14 PM

We don't want tropes drifting. It's that simple. Drift is not a good thing and should never be encouraged. Chasing the bad examples with the definition is encouraging drift.

acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#96: Mar 20th 2015 at 6:39:04 PM

But it drifted to having a strict reading of 'fragile' in the first place. If you want to avoid drift as an absolute then thats more reason it should be reverted to 'weak.'

acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#97: Mar 20th 2015 at 6:50:28 PM

Here another option. Shy of allowing the trope as is to allow for both fast + fragile and occasionally broad readings of fast + weak as is, what about a soft split.

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#98: Mar 20th 2015 at 7:08:32 PM

We don't need that at all. Fast and weak is JUST NOT THIS TROPE and not even in the trope name.... It would be something else and related to Death of a Thousand Cuts.

The only thing I see is the Evasion Tank sister trope to this in which a tank takes more damage but thanks to dodging it averages out to be the same as the Meat Shield tank or have so much evasion that they just can not be hit, in World Of Warcraft it was 103% dodge to never get hit till they added Diminishing Returns on the defensive stats.

edited 20th Mar '15 7:08:53 PM by Memers

acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#99: Mar 20th 2015 at 7:27:42 PM

I know it's not the trope under a strict definition. I'm saying that that is how it is often used to the point where it should be given a nod, without changing anything else.

DAN004 Chair Man from The 0th Dimension Since: Aug, 2010
Chair Man
#100: Mar 20th 2015 at 7:47:18 PM

Well, anyone in favor of a crowner?

I'd choose "do nothing" or "clean misuse".

MAX POWER KILL JEEEEEEEEWWWWW

Total posts: 149
Top