It is now four days after the crowner was posted. The consensus (at the time of this post) is 23:5 against continuing discussion.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.Seeing how the discussion is more about Functional Genre Savvy instead of Genre Savvy we could probably rename the thread.
Unless someone wanted to do a wick check on Genre Savvy on misuse of just generically savvy character or Functional Genre Savvy examples.
edited 1st Mar '15 9:48:27 AM by Memers
I think we should tackle the true problem of Missing Super Trope Syndrome first before we do any cleanup.
After all, the trope had decayed from "Genre Savvy" to just "Savvy" in the same way "Deadpan Snarker" decayed into just "Snarker".
As pointed out by Memers at post#57
, someone who is "savvy enough to adequately predict the situation" is certainly a trope. In other words, while "Knowledgeable or experienced about something" is not a trope in of itself, "Shrewd, well-informed and perceptive", Wiktionary's definition of Savvy
(which is what the misuse is interpreting the trope as), does indeed seem to be a trope.
edited 1st Mar '15 12:36:22 PM by KarjamP
I'm not sure that a trope about general savviness would necessarily be a supertrope of Genre Savvy. General savviness would have to be more of a characterization trope "a character always seems to know the right thing to do" in order to avoid becoming PSOC ("a character does the right thing in a particular situation" is PSOC in my opinion).
On the other hand, a person can be Genre Savvy in a particular situation only (Bob can't handle all the situations that arise, but he can handle vampires, because he's familiar with vampire stories). So it wouldn't be a trope-subtrope relation.
edited 1st Mar '15 1:34:44 PM by GnomeTitan
Again, how would Taught by Experience be related to this trope?
And I think we have a lot of tropes for "a wise, perceptive character".
MAX POWER KILL JEEEEEEEEWWWWWTaught by Experience is basically the same thing as Genre Savvy, but learned from "real" experience rather than fictional experience.
Check out my fanfiction!
I think adding a line like this: "If a character gets their savvyness from paying attention to their environment instead of fiction, that is Taught by Experience, not Genre Savvy." to the Genre Savvy page would help differentiate what is Genere Savvy, and what isn't.
And then there's Savviness induced by knowing how a particular group of individuals work.
Incidentally, the related trope, Dangerously Genre-Savvy, would also need to be changed if we're going the route of reverting this trope to the way it was before Trope Decay simply due to Dangerously Genre-Savvy, and its examples, for that matter (which, by extension, includes the page picture), relying on the fact that Genry Savvy had decayed into being about just the "Savviness" of the characters in question.
Also, JustForFun.The Universal Genre Savvy Guide needs to be renamed for similar reasons.
Incidentally, Taught by Experience doesn't seem to be "Savviness taught by experience" anymore than just, well, having learned his knowledge by experience instead of the more traditional methods of learning.
Again, Genre Savvy isn't being misused for "a character does the right thing in a particular situation". It's being misused because the trope had decayed to just being focused on the "Savvy" part of the word.
Do you guys really know what the word "Savvy" means, or are you just incorrectly assuming it either means "knowledgeable about how something works" or "a character does the right thing in a particular situation"?
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/savvy
savvy (comparative
savvier
, superlative
savviest
')
1.(informal
) Shrewd
, well-informed and perceptive
. [quotations ▲]
- 22 March 2012, Scott Tobias, AV Club The Hunger Games[1]
Synonyms
1. canny
Yes, I've put the plotholes, the italics and the boldings down by hand when I quoted Wiktionary, a sister project to The Other Wiki, in order to prove my point.
edited 2nd Mar '15 2:05:13 AM by KarjamP
I do know what "savvy" means, thank you. If you were responding to my post, I think you have misunderstood my argument completely, and I don't really see a point in continuing this particular line of discussion, since we're clearly talking at cross-purposes.
edited 2nd Mar '15 2:50:49 AM by GnomeTitan
Quoting word definitions doesn't make a point about what the trope is supposed to be about. And even by what you quoted, "knowledgeable about how something works" is a perfectly valid definition.
Also, that quotation to demonstrate word use is atrocious. But that's not really relevant for us.
edited 2nd Mar '15 4:22:46 AM by AnotherDuck
Check out my fanfiction!I was just misinterpreting the argument based upon my understanding of the term, leading me to try and make emphasis on what Wiktionary is by deliberately attempting to add some of the formatting back into what I've just quoted. Now that I realize my mistake, I'll now try to reason differently.
The "Being knowledgeable about something and how it usually works" trope, what Genre Savvy had decayed into, is not "People Sit On Chairs".
People Sit On Chairs is when an occurrence within the story doesn't have meaning for the purpose of storytelling. A perfect example of this is provided in its page quote: "While this has no plot bearing, Nanoha from Lyrical Nanoha is left-handed."
"Being knowledgeable about something and how it usually works" isn't People Sit On Chairs since it's indeed possible for their knowledge to be used for the purpose of storytelling, even seemingly useless stuff like vampire hunters knowing how vampires operate simply by experience as it's possible to make a story about them trying to find and identify a vampire and then, trying to and chase them down so that they can kill them. Granted, this is technically Functional Genre Savvy, but Functional Genre Savvy is technically a subtrope of Genre Savvy even though it's a lot more common (as evident by Functional Genre Savvy being in the Omnipresent Trope index).
No Trope Is Too Common because if that was the case, anything and everything within the Omnipresent Trope index, including Plot, Characters and Conflict, aren't tropes.
edited 2nd Mar '15 8:16:26 AM by KarjamP
The problem is there isnt anything about "genre' in any of that, They have to be knowledgeable about the genre to be Genre Savvy. If they are not knowledgeable about the genre then it just isnt the trope at all and making Genre Savvy anything else would ruin the rest of the Genre Savvy tropes like Dangerously Genre-Savvy or Wrong Genre Savvy.
Ok take a moment from the first episode Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun, The main character is having her wanna be love interest come with her to the bike racks and thinks she is going to ride home with him on the back of his bike
◊. It is a standard Shojo romance trope that gets discussed earlier
◊, Now that is Genre Savvy. The problem is the work is a comedy so nope its an embarrassing 2 seater
◊ thus being Wrong Genre Savvy and a complete Moment Killer. Anything else is just not Genre Savvy and the trope needs a cleanup to get rid of anything but.
A Savvy Trope I think does have its place though as maybe an Index or exampleless supertrope to tropes that use the savvy character, those would be stuff like The Scoundral, The Street Rat, The Grizzled Veteran, The Mentor, The Manipulator, and such as they usually have street smarts and such. The decay would fall under one of these.
EDIT: or whatever the tropes for those red links actually are.
edited 2nd Mar '15 6:46:02 AM by Memers
I'm aware of that. I blame Trope Decay for that.
In fact, the reason why I'm comparing Genre Savvy to Deadpan Snarker is because the respective tropes had decayed similarly - the first word of each trope name, "Genre" and "Deadpan", respectively, no longer holds merit in how tropers generally interpret the tropes.
And your idea doesn't sound too bad.
Except that for some of us, Trope Decay is not a valid reason to not fix a trope into being what it was, especially since it seems that this would be a pretty direct fix.
Did I say "We must not fix the trope because it had underwent Trope Decay"?
I was comparing the two tropes, not saying we shouldn't fix the problem. I only compared the two in order to help figure out how to fix the trope.
edited 2nd Mar '15 9:05:31 AM by KarjamP
I've called the crowner. After five days (or maybe six, I'm not sure) it's 5:1 against continuing discussion about the offending paragraph.
Given that it was added without discussion, and substantially changed the definition of the trope to be far, far more inclusive than was originally intended, I've also cut it fromthe description.
Clean-up can now commence: "learning from experience or observation with no element of getting the information from knowledge of fictional forms" and "knowing what's likely to happen because they remember things that have happened to them in the past" are bad examples — they may demonstrate a level of Savvy, but they are not Genre Savvy — and should be cut.
If you want to discuss a missing supertrope, or a missing subtrope, please make a new thread in Trope talk or YKTTW it. I'd suggest that it be largely hashed out in Trope talk, first.
We have a lot of tropes in Tropes of Wisdom that plays with the idea of "savviness".
MAX POWER KILL JEEEEEEEEWWWWWIt looks like most of the examples need to be deleted because it's a case of Square Peg Round Trope. We could comment out Zero Context Examples if we find any.
Crown Description:
This is an advisory crowner to determine whether further discussion is necessary Does the inclusion of the following paragraph in the current definition of "Genre Savvy" make the trope too broad?

Just as a note, there's a 19:4 consensus against continuing any discussion about that paragraph in just over 48 hours since the crowner has been created.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.