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crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#76: Feb 27th 2015 at 6:50:23 AM

Just as a note, there's a 19:4 consensus against continuing any discussion about that paragraph in just over 48 hours since the crowner has been created. cool

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#77: Feb 27th 2015 at 7:08:04 AM

And folk have been really good about not discussing that particular paragraph, too, so thanks for that.

DAN004 Chair Man from The 0th Dimension Since: Aug, 2010
Chair Man
#78: Feb 27th 2015 at 12:02:07 PM

...So what happens if we stop debating about that paragraph? Didn't Madrugada said to modify/cut it?

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KarjamP The imaginative Christian Asperger from South Africa Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
#79: Mar 1st 2015 at 6:03:36 AM

Can we carry on the discussion, please?

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#80: Mar 1st 2015 at 9:16:17 AM

It is now four days after the crowner was posted. The consensus (at the time of this post) is 23:5 against continuing discussion.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#81: Mar 1st 2015 at 9:47:25 AM

Seeing how the discussion is more about Functional Genre Savvy instead of Genre Savvy we could probably rename the thread.

Unless someone wanted to do a wick check on Genre Savvy on misuse of just generically savvy character or Functional Genre Savvy examples.

edited 1st Mar '15 9:48:27 AM by Memers

GnomeTitan Oversized Garden Ornament Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Oversized Garden Ornament
#82: Mar 1st 2015 at 11:00:10 AM

I don't think a wick check is necessary. Once we've agreed on the definition we can just proceed with cleaning up all misuse we can find.

KarjamP The imaginative Christian Asperger from South Africa Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
#83: Mar 1st 2015 at 12:29:31 PM

I think we should tackle the true problem of Missing Super Trope Syndrome first before we do any cleanup.

After all, the trope had decayed from "Genre Savvy" to just "Savvy" in the same way "Deadpan Snarker" decayed into just "Snarker".

As pointed out by Memers at post#57, someone who is "savvy enough to adequately predict the situation" is certainly a trope. In other words, while "Knowledgeable or experienced about something" is not a trope in of itself, "Shrewd, well-informed and perceptive", Wiktionary's definition of Savvy (which is what the misuse is interpreting the trope as), does indeed seem to be a trope.

edited 1st Mar '15 12:36:22 PM by KarjamP

GnomeTitan Oversized Garden Ornament Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Oversized Garden Ornament
#84: Mar 1st 2015 at 1:34:13 PM

I'm not sure that a trope about general savviness would necessarily be a supertrope of Genre Savvy. General savviness would have to be more of a characterization trope "a character always seems to know the right thing to do" in order to avoid becoming PSOC ("a character does the right thing in a particular situation" is PSOC in my opinion).

On the other hand, a person can be Genre Savvy in a particular situation only (Bob can't handle all the situations that arise, but he can handle vampires, because he's familiar with vampire stories). So it wouldn't be a trope-subtrope relation.

edited 1st Mar '15 1:34:44 PM by GnomeTitan

DAN004 Chair Man from The 0th Dimension Since: Aug, 2010
Chair Man
#85: Mar 1st 2015 at 3:18:32 PM

Again, how would Taught by Experience be related to this trope?

And I think we have a lot of tropes for "a wise, perceptive character".

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AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#86: Mar 1st 2015 at 5:08:17 PM

Taught by Experience is basically the same thing as Genre Savvy, but learned from "real" experience rather than fictional experience.

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ObsidianFire Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#87: Mar 1st 2015 at 6:05:04 PM

[up]I think adding a line like this: "If a character gets their savvyness from paying attention to their environment instead of fiction, that is Taught by Experience, not Genre Savvy." to the Genre Savvy page would help differentiate what is Genere Savvy, and what isn't.

KarjamP The imaginative Christian Asperger from South Africa Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
#88: Mar 2nd 2015 at 2:04:40 AM

And then there's Savviness induced by knowing how a particular group of individuals work.

Incidentally, the related trope, Dangerously Genre-Savvy, would also need to be changed if we're going the route of reverting this trope to the way it was before Trope Decay simply due to Dangerously Genre-Savvy, and its examples, for that matter (which, by extension, includes the page picture), relying on the fact that Genry Savvy had decayed into being about just the "Savviness" of the characters in question.

Also, JustForFun.The Universal Genre Savvy Guide needs to be renamed for similar reasons.

Incidentally, Taught by Experience doesn't seem to be "Savviness taught by experience" anymore than just, well, having learned his knowledge by experience instead of the more traditional methods of learning.

Again, Genre Savvy isn't being misused for "a character does the right thing in a particular situation". It's being misused because the trope had decayed to just being focused on the "Savvy" part of the word.

Do you guys really know what the word "Savvy" means, or are you just incorrectly assuming it either means "knowledgeable about how something works" or "a character does the right thing in a particular situation"?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/savvy

Adjective

savvy (comparative savvier, superlative savviest')

1.(informal) Shrewd, well-informed and perceptive.  [quotations ▲]

  • 22 March 2012, Scott Tobias, AV Club The Hunger Games[1]
—> That such a safe adaptation could come of The Hunger Games speaks more to the trilogy’s commercial ascent than the book’s actual content, which is audacious and savvy in its dark calculations.

Synonyms

1. canny

Yes, I've put the plotholes, the italics and the boldings down by hand when I quoted Wiktionary, a sister project to The Other Wiki, in order to prove my point.

edited 2nd Mar '15 2:05:13 AM by KarjamP

GnomeTitan Oversized Garden Ornament Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Oversized Garden Ornament
#89: Mar 2nd 2015 at 2:43:16 AM

I do know what "savvy" means, thank you. If you were responding to my post, I think you have misunderstood my argument completely, and I don't really see a point in continuing this particular line of discussion, since we're clearly talking at cross-purposes.

edited 2nd Mar '15 2:50:49 AM by GnomeTitan

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#90: Mar 2nd 2015 at 4:17:51 AM

Quoting word definitions doesn't make a point about what the trope is supposed to be about. And even by what you quoted, "knowledgeable about how something works" is a perfectly valid definition.

Also, that quotation to demonstrate word use is atrocious. But that's not really relevant for us.

edited 2nd Mar '15 4:22:46 AM by AnotherDuck

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KarjamP The imaginative Christian Asperger from South Africa Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
#91: Mar 2nd 2015 at 5:47:47 AM

I was just misinterpreting the argument based upon my understanding of the term, leading me to try and make emphasis on what Wiktionary is by deliberately attempting to add some of the formatting back into what I've just quoted. Now that I realize my mistake, I'll now try to reason differently.

The "Being knowledgeable about something and how it usually works" trope, what Genre Savvy had decayed into, is not "People Sit On Chairs".

People Sit On Chairs is when an occurrence within the story doesn't have meaning for the purpose of storytelling. A perfect example of this is provided in its page quote: "While this has no plot bearing, Nanoha from Lyrical Nanoha is left-handed."

"Being knowledgeable about something and how it usually works" isn't People Sit On Chairs since it's indeed possible for their knowledge to be used for the purpose of storytelling, even seemingly useless stuff like vampire hunters knowing how vampires operate simply by experience as it's possible to make a story about them trying to find and identify a vampire and then, trying to and chase them down so that they can kill them. Granted, this is technically Functional Genre Savvy, but Functional Genre Savvy is technically a subtrope of Genre Savvy even though it's a lot more common (as evident by Functional Genre Savvy being in the Omnipresent Trope index).

No Trope Is Too Common because if that was the case, anything and everything within the Omnipresent Trope index, including Plot, Characters and Conflict, aren't tropes.

edited 2nd Mar '15 8:16:26 AM by KarjamP

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#92: Mar 2nd 2015 at 5:57:37 AM

The problem is there isnt anything about "genre' in any of that, They have to be knowledgeable about the genre to be Genre Savvy. If they are not knowledgeable about the genre then it just isnt the trope at all and making Genre Savvy anything else would ruin the rest of the Genre Savvy tropes like Dangerously Genre-Savvy or Wrong Genre Savvy.

Ok take a moment from the first episode Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun, The main character is having her wanna be love interest come with her to the bike racks and thinks she is going to ride home with him on the back of his bike. It is a standard Shojo romance trope that gets discussed earlier, Now that is Genre Savvy. The problem is the work is a comedy so nope its an embarrassing 2 seater thus being Wrong Genre Savvy and a complete Moment Killer. Anything else is just not Genre Savvy and the trope needs a cleanup to get rid of anything but.

A Savvy Trope I think does have its place though as maybe an Index or exampleless supertrope to tropes that use the savvy character, those would be stuff like The Scoundral, The Street Rat, The Grizzled Veteran, The Mentor, The Manipulator, and such as they usually have street smarts and such. The decay would fall under one of these.

EDIT: or whatever the tropes for those red links actually are.

edited 2nd Mar '15 6:46:02 AM by Memers

KarjamP The imaginative Christian Asperger from South Africa Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
#93: Mar 2nd 2015 at 6:17:37 AM

I'm aware of that. I blame Trope Decay for that.

In fact, the reason why I'm comparing Genre Savvy to Deadpan Snarker is because the respective tropes had decayed similarly - the first word of each trope name, "Genre" and "Deadpan", respectively, no longer holds merit in how tropers generally interpret the tropes.

And your idea doesn't sound too bad.

ObsidianFire Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#94: Mar 2nd 2015 at 9:01:35 AM

[up]Except that for some of us, Trope Decay is not a valid reason to not fix a trope into being what it was, especially since it seems that this would be a pretty direct fix.

KarjamP The imaginative Christian Asperger from South Africa Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
#95: Mar 2nd 2015 at 9:05:04 AM

Did I say "We must not fix the trope because it had underwent Trope Decay"?

I was comparing the two tropes, not saying we shouldn't fix the problem. I only compared the two in order to help figure out how to fix the trope.

edited 2nd Mar '15 9:05:31 AM by KarjamP

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#96: Mar 2nd 2015 at 11:38:53 AM

I've called the crowner. After five days (or maybe six, I'm not sure) it's 5:1 against continuing discussion about the offending paragraph.

Given that it was added without discussion, and substantially changed the definition of the trope to be far, far more inclusive than was originally intended, I've also cut it fromthe description.

Clean-up can now commence: "learning from experience or observation with no element of getting the information from knowledge of fictional forms" and "knowing what's likely to happen because they remember things that have happened to them in the past" are bad examples — they may demonstrate a level of Savvy, but they are not Genre Savvy — and should be cut.

If you want to discuss a missing supertrope, or a missing subtrope, please make a new thread in Trope talk or YKTTW it. I'd suggest that it be largely hashed out in Trope talk, first.

DAN004 Chair Man from The 0th Dimension Since: Aug, 2010
Chair Man
#97: Mar 2nd 2015 at 3:39:23 PM

We have a lot of tropes in Tropes of Wisdom that plays with the idea of "savviness".

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ObsidianFire Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#98: Mar 2nd 2015 at 3:46:48 PM

Guess I'll start getting to work commenting out examples then...

lexicon Since: May, 2012
#99: Mar 2nd 2015 at 4:03:53 PM

It looks like most of the examples need to be deleted because it's a case of Square Peg Round Trope. We could comment out Zero Context Examples if we find any.

ObsidianFire Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#100: Mar 2nd 2015 at 6:13:39 PM

[up]Yeah... I noticed that when I took a look at the anime subpage... also, I'm assuming everyting on the Real Life page shouldn't be there..

edited 2nd Mar '15 6:14:42 PM by ObsidianFire

SingleProposition: GenreSavvy
25th Feb '15 7:54:10 AM

Crown Description:

This is an advisory crowner to determine whether further discussion is necessary

Does the inclusion of the following paragraph in the current definition of "Genre Savvy" make the trope too broad?

There are two finely-distinguished varieties of genre savvy. The first comes from being familiar with fiction. A good example of this is the Scream series, where the genre savvy characters are savvy because they've watched horror movies. The other kind comes from being a character in some sort of serial fiction, and having a good memory. For example, many modern comic book superhero characters exhibit a lot of savviness, simply because they can remember all the weird things that've happened to them, and thus are not surprised when yet another evil twin shows up.

Background information: That paragraph was added in December of 2011 with no discussion anywhere that I can find any record of.

Please vote UP if you believe that valid arguments can be made for keeping that section and that discussion should continue; DOWN if you do not.

Total posts: 283
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