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Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#201: Jun 23rd 2015 at 5:11:19 PM

[up]This. This can never be stressed enough.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#202: Jun 23rd 2015 at 6:13:54 PM

Handle, people do not base their practices on a simple, straightforward interpretation of the core doctrine- instead they use their belief system to try and make sense of the world they themselves live in. If the world you live in is characterized by chaos, tribalism, violence and distrust, then no matter what religion they happen to be, they will spin that religion to reflect those conditions. Much like democracy, there are people in the world who may simply not be ready for a mainstream religion, yet they adopt one anyway. There is nothing in Islam (or Judaism) which is inherently problematic for the rest of us.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#203: Jun 23rd 2015 at 6:44:51 PM

There is nothing in Islam (or Judaism) which is inherently problematic for the rest of us.

Unless you're a woman. Or LGBT.

people do not base their practices on a simple, straightforward interpretation of the core doctrine- instead they use their belief system to try and make sense of the world they themselves live in.
So we cannot judge it by it's doctrines and we cannot judge it by it's adherents.

I'd really wish people would stop dealing in bloody Double Standards when it comes to religion. Would Islam be a secular ideology no one here would be caught dead defending it.

edited 23rd Jun '15 6:56:08 PM by Antiteilchen

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#204: Jun 23rd 2015 at 7:25:11 PM

I really doubt that. There are too many women who seem very committed to their Islamic faith for that to be true. I cant speak to LGBT in Islam- but perhaps "problematic" wasnt strong enough of a word. Every belief system has problems. That said, I doubt those Indonesian islands became suddenly more hostile to LGBT after they converted to Islam- but perhaps you have information I dont have.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#205: Jun 23rd 2015 at 7:36:14 PM

Relevant.

Also relevant.

edited 23rd Jun '15 7:48:28 PM by Quag15

Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#206: Jun 24th 2015 at 3:34:44 AM

Well, secular islam is a bit wobbly because Allah is kind of a keystone in the whole thing. Take him out and a lot of it loses legitimacy fast.

MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#207: Jun 24th 2015 at 4:24:19 AM

-Takes a deep breath- This is just my two cents.

It really, really irritates me when people make blanket assumptions like "Muslim women are oppressed by Islam" without even asking us how we feel about it or even researching more about Muslim women on their own without using biased sources.

For example, Muslim women's feelings about covering their body are varied'; ranging from grudging acceptance, "I do it because my family told me too", to indifference, to content, to feeling liberated and secure (which is how I feel) and so on and so forth.

As for why most Muslim women generally feel they are obligated to cover themselves it is because Allah clearly commanded us to as means for protecting our bodies. Being commanded to do something does not mean you don't have a choice to do it or not but if you love and respect (along with a clear understanding why you are ordered to do it) Allah, you feel obligated to do so. It is kinda similar to a parent / child relationship if you want an analogy.

Now that I got that off my chest...I'm just gonna lurk this thread l just like I used to -slips away silently-

edited 24th Jun '15 5:03:34 AM by MacronNotes

Macron's notes
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#208: Jun 24th 2015 at 5:21:10 AM

I've heard that the body covering stuff is actually n Arab cultural thing and not truly from the religious texts.

The body covering thing is something I have a variety of issues with. As a feminist I don't like women being told what to do with their bodies, as a Men's Issues Activist I don't like the implication that men are savage anime that will be driven wild with desire at the sight of some ankle, and as someone who likes varied fashion I find the pure black attire incredibly dull, at least add some colour.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#209: Jun 24th 2015 at 5:31:05 AM

^I'm trying to be as civil as I can but your tone is very condescending...

You do know that Islamic dress for women has tons of variety and styles and colors in general right? As an aside, Our Islamic Dress article explains things way better than I ever could.

edited 24th Jun '15 6:03:19 AM by MacronNotes

Macron's notes
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#212: Jun 24th 2015 at 6:12:03 AM

[up]X3 Sorry I should have been more specific, I'm talking specifically about the full body covering that also cover the face. I've seen great variety amongst head scarves and stuff but I tend not to associate head scarves with Islam due to the fact that they are worn by people for a variety of different reasons. For me it's like how I wouldn't naturally associate someone is modest dress with Christianity, they'd need to be in a full nuns outfit for me to make the connection.

Do the full body coverings come in a variety of colours and patterns? I honestly didn't think they did, as I've never seen colourful full body coverings used by anyone I've seen in full body coverings. Is thsi due to the branches of Islam I'm encountering? My uni has a large Somali community so might that effect what I'm seeing (though one would think I'd see a lot of variety amongst the streets of London).

edited 24th Jun '15 6:13:01 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#213: Jun 24th 2015 at 6:18:33 AM

There's no specific outfit that is mandated by Islam for women, only a specific set of criteria for what counts as a sufficiently modest outfit. Off the top of my head, as long as it's not form-fitting (i.e. baggy enough to hide the general outline of the woman's body), covers all of a woman's skin and hair (barring the hands, face, and maybe feet, all of which are the subject of much debate among the various schools of sharia), and doesn't have attention-grabbing ornamentation (which is sadly becoming more and more commonplace in Saudi Arabia nowadays), it's perfectly acceptable.

edited 24th Jun '15 6:19:08 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#214: Jun 24th 2015 at 6:21:39 AM

[up]When you mean ornamentation, do you mean unusual fashion patterns or stuff like jewellery attached to it?

Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#215: Jun 24th 2015 at 6:23:05 AM

Frankly you could go around dressed as the Witch-king of Angmar as far as I'm concerned. Although that probably doesn't qualify on the "no ostentatious ornamentation" front.

edited 24th Jun '15 6:25:22 AM by Elfive

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#216: Jun 24th 2015 at 6:31:39 AM

[up][up] Both, though only the former applies when I talked about it becoming more commonplace.

edited 24th Jun '15 6:31:48 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#217: Jun 24th 2015 at 6:40:16 AM

I really doubt that. There are too many women who seem very committed to their Islamic faith for that to be true. I cant speak to LGBT in Islam- but perhaps "problematic" wasnt strong enough of a word. Every belief system has problems. That said, I doubt those Indonesian islands became suddenly more hostile to LGBT after they converted to Islam- but perhaps you have information I dont have.
Just because some find happiness in slavery doesn't mean that slavery is suddenly okay.

We have a lot of women who engage in slut shaming in the west as well. Doesn't mean it's okay.

And this:[1] talks about how Muslims are practically like everyone else. Except when it comes to sexism:

There’s some questions by which I did find evidence of Muslim distinctiveness. For example, gender inequality; I find in the data that there are big problems in the Muslim world relative to other regions, and among Muslims relative to people of other faiths when it comes to gender inequality. It seems that there are lower workforce participation ratios — that is, female-to-male and earned-income ratios — among Muslims than among non-Muslims, generally speaking, which means that women tend to work less and earn less than men do in Muslim countries to a greater extent than they do elsewhere. I also find other evidence of gender discrimination …

Generally speaking, women should outlive men by several years. I found that that gap is somewhat smaller in predominantly Muslim societies, which is a red flag and shows that perhaps there are gender discrimination problems that run more deeply than in predominantly non-Muslim societies.

So if we cannot judge Islam by it's tenets, maybe we should judge it on its effects. And the effect is higher gender inequality and discrimination than anywhere else in the world.

And the covering and regulating of the bodies is inherently problematic because it is a major contribution to rape culture. The details were mentioned by Silasw.

edited 24th Jun '15 6:40:30 AM by Antiteilchen

Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#218: Jun 24th 2015 at 6:52:11 AM

Actually, has it struck anyone else as ironic that Hijab is supposed to not be attention-grabbing, and yet in most western countries it winds up being exactly that?

Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#220: Jun 24th 2015 at 6:56:27 AM

[up][up] Please don't compare Islam to slavery.

edited 24th Jun '15 6:57:03 AM by LogoP

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#221: Jun 24th 2015 at 7:01:24 AM

I'd add that on some amusing level, Islamophobia has actually led the fundamentalist baptist church in the southern USA to loosen its regulations on women's dress in response to the comparisons between it and perceived "Islamic Fundamentalism."

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#222: Jun 24th 2015 at 7:08:33 AM

@Quag: The problem isn't what they wear. It's why. It's the expectations that others wear it too. It's the underlying belief that a woman who shows more of her body is a slut and that she isn't worthy of respect anymore. It's the underlying belief that showing skin will lead to rape and sexual harrasment. And that this is justified. It's the implied belief that men can't help themselves and that it's a woman's fault if she is raped.

If you only feel safe wearing a hijab than the society is the problem not the women who wear it. But this isn't solved by reinforcing rape culture and giving in to those expectations by society.

Please don't compare Islam to slavery.
Why not? It forces people into strict roles. And it does so based on your sex. It's illiberal just like slavery is.

Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#224: Jun 24th 2015 at 7:16:17 AM

@Macron: if you keep remaining civil against your first impulses and engaging in conversations on topics that are important to you with people who disagree with you, you will form habits that will serve you well in difficult circumstances.

Speaking of which, I suggest that you research Gorean ethics, and the people who proudly uphold them. They do exist, and can be quite reasonable and articulate.

And yes, I am guessing, off the top of my head, that wearing a mask and a formless drape over your body can indeed be quite liberating, in the anonymity and shelter it provides, and, perhaps also, in a sense of fulfilled duty, and a denial of men of anchoring points for their gaze to latch on to.

But my father still tells me of his home town, where it was right and proper for the man of the house (there always must be one) to beat the everloving shit out of his wife, daughter, or sister, for things such as daring to answer the door.

You are, of course, free to dress like you think you should... but many women aren't free not to, and that's a concern. Or are you okay with that?

@Slavery: we are literally the Slaves of God, and our religion is called Submission.

edited 24th Jun '15 7:17:59 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#225: Jun 24th 2015 at 7:20:09 AM

Why not? It forces people into strict roles. And it does so based on your sex. It's illiberal just like slavery is.

So edgy.

The problem isn't what they wear. It's why. It's the expectations that others wear it too. It's the underlying belief that a woman who shows more of her body is a slut and that she isn't worthy of respect anymore. It's the underlying belief that showing skin will lead to rape and sexual harrasment. And that this is justified. It's the implied belief that men can't help themselves and that it's a woman's fault if she is raped.

If you only feel safe wearing a hijab than the society is the problem not the women who wear it. But this isn't solved by reinforcing rape culture and giving in to those expectations by society.

You're only looking at some reasons. Reasons which may not be used by everyone as justification. Reasons which you used as an argument according to your liberal mindset. A liberal mindset which completely distorts religious practices and reasons in the same way a conservative mindset distorts the practices of regular liberals or regular LGBT folks, without taking time to talk to people who actually live it and to think about the whole historical and exegetic context.

So, I will ask you again: if a Muslim woman chooses, of her own will, what would you say and how would you treat her? Would you tell her to drop those clothes? Would you tell her that she's a deluded person who's happy in being a 'slave'?

What I'm saying is: yes, there are women who are beaten, abused, put on unfair trials for not dressing a certain way. But there are also women who like to remain private and fairly anonymous and secure from Male Gaze, as Handle pointed it out.

Things aren't exactly the same across whole religions and sets of beliefs. Heck, they vary from country to country, community to community.

edited 24th Jun '15 7:25:17 AM by Quag15


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