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Is it OK to judge by whom people date?

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Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#26: Feb 17th 2015 at 6:51:09 AM

My grandmother is racist. Prolly a nazi.

Am I a terrible person for loving her, and willingly associating with her, familial bonds nothwithstanding? I can think I would love to spend more time with her over spending it with dozens upon dozens of other non-racist, non-nazi people.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#27: Feb 17th 2015 at 7:30:47 AM

When it comes to family, especially one's elders, most people's tolerance of racism, sexism, bigotry, homophobia etc is usually a lot higher than usual.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#28: Feb 17th 2015 at 7:33:12 AM

So? The argument that I am contesting is that "you can tell what people are willing to tolerate" by whom they associate with

I can easily shun, refuse to speak, and speak ill of my grandmother. I dont. Does this make me a horrible person?

edited 17th Feb '15 7:33:54 AM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#29: Feb 17th 2015 at 7:40:20 AM

No, you aren't. Because, as I said, when it comes to family, most people are willing to make exceptions. Doesn't mean they'd normally associate & make friends with people like that in their daily life.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#30: Feb 17th 2015 at 8:18:28 AM

Judging someone as lesser based on who they date strikes me as wrong.

First, there are points made above along the lines of Love Makes You Dumb, etc.

Second, you're judging the person they're dating presumably based on your own tastes and thoughts about who people should date and what this person is like. But everyone has different tastes and needs, (I've been seeing my fiancee about 6 years, and her sister and the sister's husband have been together just as long, and it's safe to say that all four of us would be horrified and at least somewhat repulsed at the prospect of dating each other's partner [if I was to date the sister, or the sister's husband to date my fiancee] but as it is we seem to have two healthy and functional relationships) and you're judging someone by their public face, which can be very different from what's going on in private, for better or worse. The defensive, unsocial, loser you see in public may be the loyal, dependable sweetheart dealing with trauma that keeps them from socializing normally. The charming guy at the office that everyone loves may be a mean drunk who knocks his wife's teeth out in private, despite how many people would swear that he'd never harm a fly. The big guy with the big beard and the motorcycle you see picking up his girlfriend could be a crude, macho, drug addict or he could be picking her up to go out on a picnic and read her poetry by Pablo Neruda. These scenarios may sound unlikely to you, but if you're not intimately familiar with these people and who they are when they're most comfortable and relaxed, how would you know?

Thirdly, even in the worst case scenario where there is abuse at work, and you know this for a fact, who exactly is helped by judging the person for who they date/dated? If someone is damaged enough by the way that life has treated them that they go out, seek, and then stay in abusive relationships, how is your judgement (which implies looking down on the person as part of that judgement) going to help them see their mistake, move on, and do better in the future? If we're talking about judging them in a way that's more than silently saying in your head something along the lines of "Ugh, what does X see in Y" or "God, X sure knows how to pick some winners. I hope they won't be too badly hurt when this goes wrong" then why would they come to you if they do have problems or issues in that relationship that could really use an outside perspective, even if that outside perspective was just to say "This is a really unhealthy relationship, the guy's a creep, time to get the hell out of it"?

Honestly, most societal judgement of other people tends to be more or less mastrubatory behavior, an excuse to look down on others and feel better about oneself in comparison. And if it's about who someone is dating or associating with, my questions would be 1) who here hasn't made a mistake, especially in dating the wrong person or having the wrong friends, and 2) how can your judgements make anything in the situation better, aside from maybe making you feel better? If it can't make anything better, maybe another tack is called for.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#31: Feb 17th 2015 at 8:31:31 AM

This might be slightly off topic but I feel it's related enough that I can ask it.

To the people that don't judge someone for who they date do you also feel the same about judging them for the friends they have? If you don't care who they date then why is this any different?

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#32: Feb 17th 2015 at 8:40:12 AM

As I said I consider it evidence that can contribute to forming an opinion of someone, I just don't think it's (commonly) enough on its own.

Yes that extends to friends to, I have judged people based on their choice to keep someone as a friend, but only when I know why they are maintaining that friendship (them enjoying it despite knowing that maintaining that friend is harming an innocent party) and even then I didn't walk away, I called that person on their shit.

I agree that making a judgement (as opposed to passing judgement) isn't inherently bad, but a good judgement is made with relevant info, if all the info you have is the character of who they are dating than you can only make a reasonable judgement on a few limited things, not on who they actually are as a person.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#33: Feb 17th 2015 at 9:24:07 AM

I had a post ready, and then I read Ambar's. And mine would have been redundant.

But anyway:

  • "Judging" is not inherently bad. If you never judge anything, you accept everything. You give your time, your attention, your effort, your concern, your energy to everything and everyone that comes into your sphere of activity. Judgement is a filter that allows us to use what we have on what matters to us, rather than scattering it willy-nilly everywhere.
    • Corollary: Judging with insufficient information, then refusing to reconsider is bad, but it's the second part — refusing to accept additional information and reconsider —that makes it bad, not the first. The vast majority of things that you'll need to make a judgement call on will, at first, give you insufficient information to be certain you're right.

  • There are any number of circumstances that can be contrived to make it more reasonable that a good person willingly and over a long-term chooses to date an obnoxious person. The fact that those mitigating circumstances may exist does not in any way behoove me to act as though they do, unless or until I know that they do. (see above about "additional information".
    • Some sets of circumstances may be mitigating factors to other people; that does not mean that I have to accept them (e.g. "she stays with him because if she left he'd be even worse" — well, good for her, I guess, but I still don't want to be around him. "He's going through a rough patch and he'll stop when things get better" — okay, I'll believe that when I see it. Again, new information. Right now I'm working with the information I have now, not that which might come to light later.)

  • The people I choose to associate with do not exist in a vacuum. They bring their associates into my sphere as well, to varying degrees. If the people they choose to associate with are not people I want in my sphere, I can only keep them out by not associating with the connecting person.

So yes, I routinely and regularly judge whether or not someone is a person I want to associate with based on a number of things, including who else they choose to associate with. And that includes their boyfriend/girlfriend/SO/hangout buddies.

edited 17th Feb '15 9:29:14 AM by Madrugada

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#34: Feb 17th 2015 at 11:47:29 AM

Judging if they're worth you putting in additional time makes perfect sense to me, but that's a judgement on if you want to put in additional effort to discover extra information, not a full moral judgement on their character as a person, which is what I'm opposed to someone doing with such little information.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#35: Feb 17th 2015 at 2:03:04 PM

@Aszur

False dichotomy. Family is family and you're stuck with them. Between social pressure and the fact that cutting mom or dad's mother out of your life will make for some very uncomfortable family reunions, you don't really have an option there. So no, you aren't a terrible person simply for associating with her. Now, if you encourage her bigotry, or don't call her at it when she directs it at other people? Then we've got a problem.

With friends/significant others, there is, conversely, little reason why you need to stay around them once they out themselves as dreadful people. The family excuse doesn't exist. And if you make a habit of regularly associating with bullies or bigots, then I probably don't want to get to know you.

@The Wanderer

I didn't say I judge them as lesser. I said that I choose not to associate with them. If my first encounter with you involves some of your friends, or worse yet, your significant other making bigoted comments or bullying people while you, at best, ignore it, then you aren't somebody I want to know.

The rest of your post isn't really worth addressing, because it boils down to "don't judge a book by it's cover" which is essentially garbage. Sure, the guy who beat me up in high school, or the girl who makes horribly racist statements at work may be a lovely person to their significant other, but so what? We're not talking about judging people based on how their SO treats them, we're talking about judging them based on how their SO treats other people. If you choose to date somebody who is abusive of other people, than I reserve the right to determine that I should stay the Hell away from you.

The whole bit about abuse is also pointless. We aren't talking about people who let their partner abuse them. We're talking about people who let their partner abuse others. If you can ignore your girlfriend declaring that all gay people should be shot, I don't want to know you. If you can ignore your boyfriend punching me in the face, I don't want to know you.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#36: Feb 17th 2015 at 3:43:12 PM

[up] I agree with most of this, though I'd note that friends can be like family, friends of friends can be people who it's very hard to avoid. I know I'm going to have some difficult interactions come my boarding school reunion, same as I could have with my family.

edited 17th Feb '15 3:50:48 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#37: Feb 18th 2015 at 8:06:42 AM

It depends on the individual. For example: not everyone has the luxury of picking his dates, I'm afraid. Some people are in a "beggars can't be choosers" situation, or at least see themselves as being in such a situation—they believe (rightly or wrongly) that their options boil down to dating a horrible person or never dating anyone, and prefer the former to the latter most days. I don't have the heart to judge such a person harshly.

Additionally, some people have hidden virtues that aren't always apparent in public, and that only someone in a close relationship sees regularly. Maybe a friend's significant other is a mixed bag, with significant flaws, but a complete winner in certain ways that don't show themselves in mixed social situations.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#38: Feb 18th 2015 at 9:06:07 AM

Nope.

Like it or not you are not intrinsecally linked to your family. What is keeping you, or me, or anyone, from moving out of country/state and never, ever talking to your mother or father ever again? Nothing.

Most people talk to their family or have some sort of relationship with them but this is by no means some sort of justification for "All families need to stick together". People who were abused, in one way or another, by their family, shy away from them. People from the Hitler family are still alive, and I am pretty certain they disavow any relationship to him.

Sounds a bit like Godwin's, but it is really just an example to make a point. Likewise, people who were abandoned at birth are examples of why you don't necesarily must stick with your family just because they are family. So, yes. Like it or not, sticking around with your family, like choosing who you date, is a decision.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#39: Feb 18th 2015 at 9:09:41 AM

While I agree with the people won't feel they 'have' to date somebody and 'have' to go for the asshole I can still understand why such a person would not be worth ones time. Now I'd say passing a moral judgement on their character is goign to far, but judging them as not worth your time, fair enough, it's your time. Such people are often charity cases, and there's only so much charity a person can do.

That seems to be where I (believe I) split from the OP, I'm okay with judging if someone is worth your time, but making a moral judgement on someone's character as a person, that's a bit far for me.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#40: Feb 18th 2015 at 12:44:08 PM

First, I've edited to OP because people keep seeming to think that I'm referring to people in a relationship with a partner who is abusive toward them. @The Wanderer: That is not the case. I am very well aware of the psychological/safety dynamics that make it very difficult for an abused partner to leave.

Secondly, I'm not sure how I feel about giving people a pass because they don't have a large pool of people to select from. I don't have a backup option, and I imagine if my current relationship ends, I'll be going without romantic companionship for quite some time. If my girlfriend starts knowingly hurting innocent people, I'll dump her in a heartbeat.

@Aszur: It really depends on if your grandmother is hurting someone. There are a lot of views I disagree with that don't hurt anyone, so I just live and let live. But if your grandmother is actively hurting the people she is racist against (giving money to support KKK or Nazi party; spits on them as they walk past her on the street; engages in discriminatory hiring practices) then, yeah, I'd think less of you for spending time with her and would probably not want to spend much time around you. If she's just an old woman who shakes her had at "That durn O-BAMA" then whatever.

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#41: Feb 18th 2015 at 1:17:00 PM

Except she is not hurting anyone, and neither is the person who is being judged solely by whom they date, or in fact, the alleged person who is bad that they date.

They are simply saying things, and to make a judgment is to take things for granted over others', without actually seeing any behavior from the person that says otherwise. That is to say, without talking to the person, you make assumptions about them solely on another, not having ever seen their behavior before.

'Tis hearsay.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#42: Feb 18th 2015 at 1:31:58 PM

Yes, I will be wary of someone until I get to know them. Then I will judge them all to hell. But this can also work in a positive light.

1) My friend Michael has proven to be a damn good friend. No nice guy bullshit, no drama, just a good quality friend. He has a girlfriend. Because he is dating her, I'm already going to judge her as an awesome person and try to befriend her because he's with her, let alone for over a year or so. Now I am not going to automatically be her bosom-buddy, but I'm willing to entertain friendship easier because of her connection with Michael.

2) I had a former friend who was at heart a good person, but had a serious, massive issue load. So when I met his girlfriend for the first time, I was wary because I know his drama, his temper, and I know that he's not healthy. So anyone who maybe attracted to that I was going to be wary of because chances are, they will be an emotional vampire preying on his issues to their gain.

And sure enough, I ended up being right. She was a complete nutcase and control freak.

The thing is to have a reason for your concern and being fair with your concern. Again, there is a difference between being reserved and wary while you get to know someone and just flat out shutting down or looking for things that may or may not be there.

But it is healthy to have these concerns as long as you act on them responsibly.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#43: Feb 18th 2015 at 1:37:44 PM

Except she is not hurting anyone, and neither is the person who is being judged solely by whom they date, or in fact, the alleged person who is bad that they date.

As I said, if your grandmother's not hurting anyone I don't really judge.

Um, however the "the alleged person who is bad that they date" is hurting people. That's the whole premise of this thread. The thread is predicated on, "Alex is dating Beth, and Beth is hurtful to third parties - do I know something bad about Alex?"

They are simply saying things, and to make a judgment is to take things for granted over others', without actually seeing any behavior from the person that says otherwise.

The behavior I'm seeing from Alex is his willingness to date Beth despite her being hurtful to third parties.

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#44: Feb 18th 2015 at 1:44:09 PM

This behavior, however, runs on several assumptions:

  • Alex knows about Beth's behavior
  • Beth behaves like that in front of Alex
  • Alex has been seeing Beth for a long time
  • Beth has always'' been like this
  • There are no outside forces forcing their relationship
  • Alex is happy with Beth

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#45: Feb 18th 2015 at 1:49:13 PM

[up]Which is why you should investigate a little further or at least, keep a semi-open mind.

I like Michael's girlfriend Lindsay. And so far she has proven to be a delightful friend. But if she ever sets off any red flags, my knowledge of Michael can be a thing that sets off the red flags.

"Michael isn't like that. He doesn't like this behavior! Either I know something he doesn't or there are things I don't know about him. Let's go talk about it."

But then again, Michael is a friend I care about and a friendship that important to me.

If I didn't know them very well and just met someone who was horrible, I wouldn't really be keen on meeting their partner. That's just drama I don't need in my life.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#46: Feb 18th 2015 at 1:54:23 PM

Okay, what are we defining as "judgement worthy" behavior? Is it just questionable opinions on things or do they have to actively go out and harass minorities? Every single person I've ever met has some kind of blindspot with this.

Related to the above. If it's just opinions then does it matter if they're pleasant to be around when they're not on this subject? I know tons of people that are against abortion but as long as they're not actually talking about it we get along great.

Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#47: Feb 18th 2015 at 2:01:51 PM

Alex knows about Beth's behavior

I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption that you know what your S.O. acts like.

Beth has always been like this

I'm not really certain how this is relevant. If Beth starts being abusive to third parties, I don't know how, "She didn't before" is really an excuse to stay around her.

Alex is happy with Beth

He's staying with her. This is a reasonable assumption.

Beth behaves like that in front of Alex; Alex has been seeing Beth for a long time

I'm going to fold these both into "Alex has some reasonable explanation for not knowing" (if there's another interpretation of that second one, let me know). And? There might be, and if someone tells me, "Oh, Alex just found out the way Beth treats everyone at work like shit and broke up with her," I'm going to immediately revise my opinion of Alex. But I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that someone knows the character of someone they're seeing romantically.

There are no outside forces forcing their relationship

Well that's true for Beth as well. Maybe someone has a gun to her mom's head saying, "treat the people around you like shit or your mom dies," but when Beth treats me like shit, I'm not going to not judge her for it until evidence of the outside force exists. I don't just randomly assume that someone is forced to act the way they do.

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#48: Feb 18th 2015 at 2:11:31 PM

Okay, what are we defining as "judgement worthy" behavior?

I'd like to ask how we're defining "judgement", determining if someone is worth putting effort into establishing a friendship with? Or making a fully declarative position on someone's moral character?

I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption that you know what your S.O. acts like.

You run is very different social circles to me, half of what dating is is finding out what your S.O. is like.

I'm not really certain how this is relevant. If Beth starts being abusive to third parties, I don't know how, "She didn't before" is really an excuse to stay around her.

Because it's a new behaviour that may not be permanent, that the person may not have had time to adjust to and may simply be a phase caused by outside factors, hell if you're basing your opinion on her of one incident than it might be a one of that was a mistake.

He's staying with her. This is a reasonable assumption.

Your social circle sounds nice, can I join?

I don't just randomly assume that someone is forced to act the way they do.

You're looking at only the utmost exstreams, there are plenty of common outside forces that can be at work that are much else dramatic than the "gun to mum's head" one.

Now again deciding that such a person isn't worth investing in emotionally is fine, it's your time and effort, but that's different from judging their moral character as a person on very little information.

edited 18th Feb '15 2:12:46 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#49: Feb 18th 2015 at 2:25:37 PM

I'd like to ask how we're defining "judgement", determining if someone is worth putting effort into establishing a friendship with? Or making a fully declarative position on someone's moral character?

I'll quote myself from the OP: "I find myself often judging people based on who they choose to date. If a girl I know dates someone who treats other people shitty, I tend to think less of her as a person (I don't try to spend time around her or befriend her). If a guy I know dates a girl that spends her time gossiping about "ugly girls" or someone not wearing designer clothes, I tend to think less of him as a person."

I don't know if this is fully declarative of their moral character - it certainly isn't a permanent unchangeable thing; as I said if the person in question had no idea and left when they found out what their S.O. was like I'd change my opinion.

You run is very different social circles to me, half of what dating is is finding out what your S.O. is like.

See above. If you drop the person when you realize they're a bully/asshole/whatever then my opinion changes. But generally speaking I don't assume that I know more about a person than someone who is dating that person does.

Because it's a new behaviour that may not be permanent, that the person may not have had time to adjust to and may simply be a phase caused by outside factors, hell if you're basing your opinion on her of one incident than it might be a one of that was a mistake.

Sure, and I'm not talking about a once incident kind of behavior. I'm talking about someone who is a bad person. As in, "Given the badness of person B, if person A dates that person, what information do I have about person A?"

Your social circle sounds nice, can I join?

Sure, but you'll have to be okay with alcohol, video games, dungeons and dragons, and No Pants 2015. We're not an exclusive club, but we have a sweet clubhouse.

You're looking at only the utmost exstreams, there are plenty of common outside forces that can be at work that are much else dramatic than the "gun to mum's head" one.

I was just pointing out that there can be things that cause bad behavior (including the behavior of dating someone who is bad), but I don't generally assume those things are true without there being some indication.

Now again deciding that such a person isn't worth investing in emotionally is fine, it's your time and effort, but that's different from judging their moral character as a person on very little information.

That was more or less my original conception: I think less of them and therefore decide not to spend time around them. I'm not saying that's it in 100% of cases, but usually that's the extent of it.

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#50: Feb 18th 2015 at 2:41:47 PM

I am all for being reserved, or cautious against people, but not based on just this one thing. There are more than enough reasonable reasons why some people would date others with certain quirks.

Even you could be the culprit of misinterpretation.

Let's say I began dating a black, jewish, or asian girl. My nazi grandma would flip her shit but if she was a nice person, no matter how right nazi grandma thinks she is will she actually hold any reason? Only in her own mind. And those things we take for granted as "true" are always subject to, well, subjectivity.

Let us say you hear rumors that Alice is a gold digging whore. Fuck, you have seen her. She dresses like a tramp, in skimpy clothing, and she wears plenty of makeup. She sure seems like it. What is Bob up to with her? Is she just taking advantage of him?

It could turn out that Alice simply likes dressing like that, and your own perceptions, plus listening to hearsay, have biased you against a person that is likely already facing accusations of such from all sides.

Just give them a chance. And it is not easy. It is fucking hard, and I know it. No one is exempt from having an opinion no matter what but you, as a person, are capable of trying to stay away from prejudices. I argue that it behooves people to not just be careful about people, but also about themselves on other people.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

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