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MidnightRambler Ich bin nicht schuld! 's ist Gottes Plan! from Germania Inferior Since: Mar, 2011
Ich bin nicht schuld! 's ist Gottes Plan!
#1: Jan 28th 2015 at 12:53:54 PM

Baby, don't... nah, I got nothing.

Biologically, things are relatively simple. There are men, with penises and XY chromosomes, and women, with vaginas and XX chromosomes. Granted, there are exceptions – like people with Klinefelter syndrome – but those are a small minority, and most of them are still clearly "male" or "female" on the outside.

Human beings, however, have feelings and identities and culture, and this is where things get complicated. First you get the transsexuals: people who are biologically male but feel they are female, or vice versa. Okay, that's still relatively easy to wrap one's head around, but beyond that point it quickly gets confusing: there are people who identify as multiple genders at the same time (polygender), different genders at different times (genderfluid), no gender at all (agender), a gender that is neither male nor female (third gender), and many other varieties and combinations.

Some of these nonstandard gender identities bear only a tenuous relation to biological sex, and this is the point I want to discuss: where do you draw the line between a gender identity and, say, a subculture or a personality type? I think everyone will agree that "male" is a gender and "female" is a gender, and I think everyone will agree that "loves pepperoni pizza" isn't a gender. But there's a huge grey area in between, where the agenders, polygenders and other genderqueers reside. So, what is and what isn't a gender? Which criteria would you use?

And since sexual orientation is (more or less) defined in terms of attraction to certain genders, we can extend the question to there as well. What distinguishes a sexual orientation from a fetish or a kink? I think everyone will agree that "heterosexual" is a sexual orientation and "homosexual" is a sexual orientation, and I think everyone will agree that "attracted to men in tight leather clothes" is not a sexual orientation. But again, there is a large grey area. Take, for example, girls with penises (the Internet has taught me three terms for such people, none of which are suitable for polite company). If you're attracted to them, is that a sexual orientation or a fetish? And for some other examples: is there a meaningful distinction between "bisexual", "pansexual" and "omnisexual"? Is "demisexual" a category of its own, or just a term for people with unusually low and/or selective sex drives?

If you draw the boundaries too narrowly, you'll force a lot of people into categories where they don't feel at home, and you'll make them miserable. If you draw them too broadly, then anything can be a gender or a sexual orientation, and the terms become meaningless; more worryingly, this could undermine the real fight for gay and transsexual rights that still rages in many parts of the world. One way or another, you're going to have to draw the line somewhere.

So, TV Tropes, let me hear where you'd draw it. What are your criteria for a gender identity? Numbers ('at least n people must identify as it')? Universality across cultures? Relation to biological sex?

For me, two important factors would probably be 'you didn't choose it' and 'you can't change it', but beyond that point I'm a little lost myself.

(Disclaimer: I know very little about non-binary genders, so the rough definitions I have given of some terms are probably not entirely correct. Also, I realise that this is a very personal and sensitive topic for many tropers, as there is an unusually high variety of gender identities and sexual orientations on this site. I do feel, though, that it would be worthwhile to have a serious discussion about this issue – without mocking or insulting anyone for who they are, but without hurling accusations of "W-ism", "X-normativity", "Y-phobia" or "Z privilege", either. I... think we can do that, but that is a call for the mods to make.)

edited 13th Feb '15 8:18:55 AM by MidnightRambler

Mache dich, mein Herze, rein...
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#2: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:18:50 PM

We've got a whole bunch of gender and sexuality threads to begin with but a problem with them is that they often turn into semantics and fail to come back from that field with any results. Sine this thread seems to be all about the semantics it should be useful as a parallel to those other threads.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#3: Jan 29th 2015 at 6:35:43 AM

The need to introduce the term gender arose with the realization that for individuals with conflicting or ambiguous biological indicators of sex (i.e., "intersex"), the lived role in society and/or the identification as male or female could not be uniformly associated with or predicted from the biological indicators and, later, that some individuals develop an identity as female or male at variance with their uniform set of classical biological indicators. Thus, gender is used to denote the public (and usually legally recognized) lived role as boy or girl, man or woman, but, in contrast to certain social constructionist theories, biological factors are seen as contributing, in interaction with social and psychological factors, to gender development. Gender assignment refers to the initial assignment as male or female. This occurs usually at birth and, thereby, yields the "natal gender."

Gender-atypical refers to somatic features or behaviors that are not typical (in a statistical sense) of individuals with the same assigned gender in a given society and historical era; for behavior, gender-nonconforming is an alternative descriptive term. Gender reassignment denotes an official (and usually legal) change of gender. Gender identity is a category of social identity and refers to an individual's identification as male, female, or, occasionally, some category other than male or female. Gender dysphoria as a general descriptive term refers to an individual's affective/cognitive discontent with the assigned gender but is more specifically defined when used as a diagnostic category. Transgender refers to the broad spectrum of individuals who transiently or persistently identify with a gender different from their natal gender. Transsexual denotes an individual who seeks, or has undergone, a social transition from male to female or female to male, which in many, but not all, cases also involves a somatic transition by cross-sex hormone treatment and genital surgery (sex reassignment surgery).

Source: DSM V, page 451

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
RobotPrincess I'll forgive you. Would you forgive me, too? Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
I'll forgive you. Would you forgive me, too?
#4: Jan 29th 2015 at 6:40:25 AM

To be honest, I don't understand gender much, myself. And even though I'm a transwoman, and I have gender dysphoria. Sometimes I feel like I might be hypogender instead of agender. Like, having a little bit of a gender, but not as much as some people. Because even though I'm a transwoman, I feel a little bit like a postgenderist, like a world without any kind of gender would be a better one. Would be a paradise. And it's very easy to empathize with radical feminism, in many of the things they are critical. Even if many radical feminists are TER Fs and are trans-exclusive to women like me. I understand how gender critical feminists feel. I feel very gender critical myself. I wish that many gender critical feminists wouldn't take being gender critical to being trans-exclusive, though. And I don't think we should call someone a TERF just because they're a little gender critical.

A lot of people talk about how the whole transracial some people claim to feel is wrong and there's a lot of... nasty things going on on tumblr going on over it and cultural appropriation. People call it really really racist fetishization and based upon stereotypes. And comparing it to something like race or ethnicity is used to discredit transmen and transwomen. And I don't think you can fee dysphoria for those other things. Gender identity feels a lot more real than other identities. Most people who actually do identify as "transracial" or something else like that, are usually white people and sometimes black people who want to look like some kind of Jpop or Kpop star they look up to. And people of colour change their appearance to look more white in white societies because they're told their natural beauty isn't beautiful. I'm not sure if it's all stereotypes, but some people fall in love with the standards of beauty and aesthetics that are popular in East Asian countries, instead of the aesthetics that are popular in white cultures. And believe in or at least have internalized racial stereotypes that Asian people have [1]small, round, "button noses", single eyelids and the epicanthic eyefold, and round, flat faces. With a round chin rather than a more pointed one. And the whole "moon face" thing that some people talk about. And dark black hair to contrast pale skin.

That's... well, that is a stereotype. Not all Asian women look like that. And non-Asian people have features like that. Which is why it's offensive to call that transracial. These people don't really want to "look Asian" so much as they want to look like a certain type of Japanese or Korean and Chinese idol and their beauty. To say Asian people look like that is stereotyping. And isn't the same as what transpeople go through. Idolizing the way a Kpop or Cpop idol looks like and want to look like that, isn't the same as having gender dysphoria.

Though, to be honest, if you were to ask me why I want to be a woman. I would have a hard time answering in a way that isn't based upon stereotypes. I want to be cute, and being cute and that kind of feminine is associated more with girls than boys. Girls are usually raised to be cute more in most cultures than boys. So maybe it makes me want to be a girl more. A lot of passing for me is just gender stereotypes. I even have height dysphoria, because shortness is associated with feminine cuteness. I want to pass and feel like a woman and be treated like one, and people consider that a legitimate part of my identity, so I do, too. But deep down, I don't know how much of it is stereotypes, or not. Sometimes, I don't know if I'm a real transwoman, and if I experience the same things that other transwoman do. I feel like, if you took all gender stereotypes away, I would still feel like I want to be a girl. But maybe, less so.

I know that transwomen are used by neurosexists to try to prove gender is a biological thing and men and women are supposed to behave a certain way. And I think that's disgusting. And I want very desperately to see all gender roles go away. I think that evolutionary psychology and gender roles are horrifying, terrible things. Or at least evolutionary psychology that believes men and women are born certain ways is really disgusting. I don't want my experiences as a transwoman to oppress women or aid neurosexism or biosexism. And, I empathize with gender critical radical feminism and TER Fs even though many of them exclude and are mean to people like me. I understand gender critical feminism and where it comes from. I understand those feelings and I share them. At the same time, it hurts to be told what I'm doing it “appropriation of women’s lived experiences” and offensive like racist cultural appropriation. And that my gender identity isn't any more real than white people and black people who try to look like East Asian pop stars. And that I can never be a woman.

edited 29th Jan '15 6:58:16 AM by RobotPrincess

Why were you born in such a cruel, violent world?
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#5: Jan 29th 2015 at 6:40:40 AM

Gender should have a connection to biological sex. Otherwise it's a different sort of identity. However, that connection can be socially made up. If society links "loves peperoni pizza" to femininity, than liking it could indeed be part of a female gender identity regardless of the persons biological built. The gendered connection is made up, but it has to be there for it to be "gender".

Sexual orientation is then a fetish regarding gender. A fetish for peperoni pizza liking people becomes a sexual orientation when liking peperoni pizza becomes a gender.

ElectricNova Since: Jun, 2012
#6: Jan 29th 2015 at 6:54:25 AM

Unlike some, I don't think gender is inherently evil or that we have to get rid of it.

Gender roles are harmful but gender identity is all i care about, so..... my gender identity is female and that's the end of it.

If someone tells me i'm somehow opressing women by having that identity, they're probably a TERF. I have no sympathy for TERF'S or "gender critical" people, since they have no points that aren't based off transphobia.

RobotPrincess I'll forgive you. Would you forgive me, too? Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
I'll forgive you. Would you forgive me, too?
#7: Jan 29th 2015 at 7:46:33 AM

I'm sorry to disagree slightly. But um... I don't think everyone who is a little bit gender critical is a TERF or very transphobic.

For some people, I think that their end goal is a genderless utopia. I've even noticed a lot of gender critical people who are far more negative towards cisgender people's gender identities than transpeople's.

Why were you born in such a cruel, violent world?
ElectricNova Since: Jun, 2012
#8: Jan 29th 2015 at 7:51:05 AM

For me "gender critical" is just a label TER Fs use to make themselves look better.

That's how i've seen it used anyway.

RobotPrincess I'll forgive you. Would you forgive me, too? Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
I'll forgive you. Would you forgive me, too?
#9: Jan 29th 2015 at 7:56:34 AM

Well, if those are your experiences. I guess your experiences are you experiences. ^^;; I've been lucky I guess and have met some nicer people.

I think that "women born women" spaces are tragic. But I don't think that parents who raise their children without gender pronouns until they decide gender pronouns for themselves are bad.

Why were you born in such a cruel, violent world?
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#10: Jan 29th 2015 at 8:05:41 AM

From how I've heard demisexuality described it must be a bit annoying to discover you are one, because I've heard a lot of asexuals complain about people saying they're "just waiting for the right person" and if you're demi it basically means that these assholes were fucking right.

edited 29th Jan '15 8:05:56 AM by Elfive

Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#11: Jan 29th 2015 at 8:42:51 AM

Currently, it's nigh-impossible to say anything normative about the word "gender" (as separate from "sex"). As the above posts suggest, anyone with a dog in that fight has a mostly-private definition that doesn't map cleanly to other persons'. It's an inherently gnomic term whose usefulness mostly lies in meaning what the speaker needs it to mean. And for that very reason, I largely don't use the word, plumping instead for "sex" in most contexts.

ElectricNova Since: Jun, 2012
#12: Jan 29th 2015 at 9:34:19 AM

I don't use the word sex unless i'm actually talking about biological sex or sexual intercourse or stuff like that[lol]

Because using the word sex as synonumous to gender annoys me greatly

SaintDeltora The Mistress from The Land Of Corruption and Debauchery Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
The Mistress
#13: Jan 29th 2015 at 9:37:18 AM

"Because using the word sex as synonumous to gender annoys me greatly"

Never learn Portuguese then.

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!
ElectricNova Since: Jun, 2012
#14: Jan 29th 2015 at 9:38:51 AM

Wasn't planning on it, anyway

Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#15: Jan 29th 2015 at 10:32:56 AM

[up]x3 Well, I don't use "sex" as synonymous to "gender." I use it precisely because it makes a salient and widely agreed-upon distinction that "gender" doesn't necessarily.

Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#16: Jan 29th 2015 at 10:54:52 AM

Well it's never going to get one if nobody uses the damn thing.

Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#17: Jan 29th 2015 at 11:06:11 AM

[up] Hey, I won't stop anyone. However, right now the semantics are simply too fluid to allow a normative definition, which gives the word limited usefulness for ordinary English speakers.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#18: Jan 29th 2015 at 11:49:31 AM

@Deltora,

Uh, we actually do have a separated word for gender. 'Gênero'. It can be used, in this context, for gender as well. There is even a wikipedia article on that (they spell funny there, but it is the same word).

SaintDeltora The Mistress from The Land Of Corruption and Debauchery Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
The Mistress
#19: Jan 29th 2015 at 11:53:02 AM

[up]It's not used often though, and most people out there don't know about it.

I only know about it because of discussions like these.

edited 29th Jan '15 11:55:43 AM by SaintDeltora

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#20: Jan 29th 2015 at 12:49:17 PM

[up]Maybe. But the distinction is very much used when discussing the issue. And you are still wrong when implying 'sex = gender' was something absolute in the Portuguese language. It isn't. Learning Portuguese or not have absolute no impact as the usage of the terms is exactly the same as in English.

SaintDeltora The Mistress from The Land Of Corruption and Debauchery Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
The Mistress
#21: Jan 29th 2015 at 12:57:41 PM

Fine, fair enough, my mistake,

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#22: Jan 29th 2015 at 2:56:33 PM

Well, Portuguese language had associated sex and gender for a long time in the past, but things have changed, and now both can be treated separately. Quite a few people haven't yet understood the distinction between sex and gender, though. Right?

edited 29th Jan '15 2:57:21 PM by Quag15

Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#23: Jan 30th 2015 at 12:57:21 AM

It might be interesting to compare notes about the words equivalent to "sex" and "gender" in various languages and how they're used.

For instance, French has sexe and genre, with sexe being pretty much synonymous with "sex" (meaning both intercourse and biological plumbing - the latter both as a category and the actual organs); genre usually means grammatical gender, but I've recently seen it used to mean social gender (to translate "gender theory", for instance). Given that grammatical gender is very often arbitrary (for people and some animals for which we have distinct words -or word forms- for males and females, it matches biological sex, but that's all), it seems fitting.

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#24: Jan 30th 2015 at 1:16:45 PM

German has only one word for both sex and gender, Geschlecht. We do have the word sex but it only refers to sexual intercourse. To make it even more confusing, Geschlecht can also mean, lineage/dynasty/family/house (as in the house of Habsburg can be das Geschlecht der Habsburger).

To distinguish gender and sex we use "soziales Geschlecht" and "biologisches Geschlecht" in Gender Studies. Or also gender lately. Though the use of the latter is usually by social consercatives who want to fight the "ideology of gender" (usually as an euphemism for their homophobia/transphobia or misogynie).

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