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Fixing a long list of PSOC articles

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rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#176: Mar 3rd 2015 at 10:33:07 AM

I, for one, am not convinced that you get it. (Especially since one answer is repeated verbatim rather than in your own words.)

Please pick an article described as "chairs" in the OP and explain why that claim is made.

edited 3rd Mar '15 10:36:18 AM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
CaveCat One cool canine Since: Apr, 2011
One cool canine
#177: Mar 3rd 2015 at 10:36:20 AM

[up] You got it. How about Quarreling Song? Someone a while back said that it's just people arguing via a song.

Sometimes, you just can't win them all.
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#178: Mar 3rd 2015 at 10:41:17 AM

What's wrong with that? Explain why that's PSOC.

(And not someone else's words again, please.)

edited 3rd Mar '15 10:44:38 AM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
CaveCat One cool canine Since: Apr, 2011
One cool canine
#179: Mar 3rd 2015 at 10:49:19 AM

[up] Don't worry, it's in my own words this time. It's not really said, but it is on the list of articles that are classified as "chairs" right now, and I think it's because people arguing in song isn't exactly a trope, other than moving the plot along when two characters have an argument.

edited 3rd Mar '15 10:51:00 AM by CaveCat

Sometimes, you just can't win them all.
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#180: Mar 3rd 2015 at 10:51:05 AM

Yes, absolutely. I think I understand now.

You're an enthusiastic troper and you seem to want to improve, but I get the sense of Scooby-doo laughing and then saying, "I don't get it." from you. Try ~Madrugada's sectioning for Quarreling Song, to help explain why it may or may not be chairs.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
CaveCat One cool canine Since: Apr, 2011
One cool canine
#181: Mar 3rd 2015 at 10:58:01 AM

[up] I'm serious this time. And by Madrugada's sectioning, I assume you mean the sectioning that he used when trying to get me to explain the meaning behind God Save Us from the Queen!. Alright, I'll try it then.

  • what the pattern is <two characters are arguing with each other in song>
  • what the creator who uses that pattern is using it to do <help the audience understand that two characters who are having a fight are working out their differences>
  • why they expect to get that response <the audience sympathizes with the characters arguing and hope for the characters to make up>
  • The most common ways it's used <used in romances and comedies and especially animated shows and movies>

I hope that's good enough.

Sometimes, you just can't win them all.
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#182: Mar 3rd 2015 at 11:55:55 AM

No. Those answers are extremely tautological and chairsy. Saying "Someone a while back said that [it's chairs because] it's just people arguing via a song" is not explaining why "people arguing via song" is chairs. Please explain.

edited 3rd Mar '15 11:59:18 AM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
CaveCat One cool canine Since: Apr, 2011
One cool canine
#183: Mar 3rd 2015 at 1:38:04 PM

[up] I explained it the best I could, but I'll try again if that's what you want.

  • what the pattern is <two characters are arguing with each other in song>
  • what the creator who uses that pattern is using it to do <make the audience understand that two characters have gotten into an argument>
  • why they expect to get that response <the audience knows that arguments lead to trouble and hope that the characters make up>
  • The most common ways it's used <used in romances and comedies and especially animated shows and movies>

edited 3rd Mar '15 6:42:02 PM by CaveCat

Sometimes, you just can't win them all.
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#184: Mar 3rd 2015 at 10:17:40 PM

So the meaning of characters arguing is that the creator is trying to communicate the characters are arguing? That is another way to define chairs, I guess.

A trope is (among other things) where a creator does one thing to communicate something else (or at least something more).

edited 3rd Mar '15 10:20:08 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
CaveCat One cool canine Since: Apr, 2011
One cool canine
#185: Mar 3rd 2015 at 10:23:08 PM

[up] Yes, at least I explained it a lot better now.

edited 3rd Mar '15 10:27:05 PM by CaveCat

Sometimes, you just can't win them all.
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#186: Mar 3rd 2015 at 10:27:58 PM

I am saying that is exactly wrong. Please read again.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#187: Mar 4th 2015 at 12:20:29 AM

Rodney, dial it back a bit please. You sort of set her up for failure when you asked her to fill in the "Why is this a good article?" questionnaire with an article that doesn't actually have answers to all of them.

Speaking of which - Cave Cat, if you can't actually find answers to all of those questions in one of your articles, or if it's all just repetition of the answer to question 1, that's a pretty good indicator that you're in People Sit On Chairs territory.

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#188: Mar 4th 2015 at 2:13:58 AM

I did not ask that. I said "Please pick an article described as 'chairs' in the OP and explain why that claim is made." No deception or manipulation present or intended. I asked why the article is bad, not why it's good.

edited 4th Mar '15 2:22:05 AM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#189: Mar 4th 2015 at 5:40:39 AM

[up][up] I asked her to use the 4 questions. I'm not sure the questions are quite clear enough on what to answer for ~Cave Cat. This may help:

  1. The recurring pattern is:
  2. Creators use that pattern to present this hidden information:
  3. Audiences connect this hidden information to Real Life by:
  4. The consistency of the hidden information is:
  5. The hidden information is needed in:
  6. The information hidden in the recurring pattern is similar to:

edited 4th Mar '15 5:57:08 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
CaveCat One cool canine Since: Apr, 2011
One cool canine
#190: Mar 4th 2015 at 9:07:09 AM

Yeah, maybe Quarreling Song was a poor choice. I should've picked Feud Episode or even Frantic Object Concealment.

And by the way, Rodney, when I said that I explained it better, I meant that I explained it better why it's chairs. I mean, at least the answers were a bit more coherent than the first time.

edited 4th Mar '15 9:13:56 AM by CaveCat

Sometimes, you just can't win them all.
Gideoncrawle Elder statesman from Put out to pasture Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Elder statesman
#191: Mar 6th 2015 at 11:22:35 AM

I think Quarreling Song is a legitimate trope, so I took a stab at rewriting the description. I also added a page quote.

Bigotry in the name of inclusion is still bigotry.
CaveCat One cool canine Since: Apr, 2011
One cool canine
#192: Mar 6th 2015 at 3:03:59 PM

[up] Thank you, Gideon. Even I couldn't have done it better than that, but I still have quite a lot of work to do to see if any of the other trope pages I created are worthy of being tropes or if they need to be nuked, especially since I have to use the questions that Crazysamaritan gave me to ask why Quarreling Song is a trope. But thank you for helping me out a bit.

Sometimes, you just can't win them all.
CaveCat One cool canine Since: Apr, 2011
One cool canine
#193: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:01:35 AM

Now that the description for Quarreling Song has been tweaked, thanks to Gideoncrawle, let's see if I can be able to get this right, using the questions that Crazysamaritan has bestowed onto me.

  1. The recurring pattern is: Two or more characters get into an argument via song.
  2. Creators use that pattern to present this hidden information: That what the characters are arguing about becomes a major plot point of the story.
  3. Audiences connect this hidden information to Real Life by: Identifying that the problem that the characters are arguing about is integral to the plot of the story.
  4. The consistency of the hidden information is: To show the audience that arguments lead to trouble.
  5. The hidden information is needed in: Musicals, operas, and Musical Episodes.
  6. The information hidden in the recurring pattern is similar to: Let's Duet, Counterpoint Duet, Call-and-Response Song.

Sometimes, you just can't win them all.
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#194: Mar 7th 2015 at 11:17:18 AM

Good, except for #3 and #4: "plot points" is not a thing in Real Life, and you didn't explain the consistency.

The answer you gave for #4 is pretty close to a good answer to #3: Audiences know arguments lead to trouble. The trouble will be important in this story's conflict.

Which sort of Consistency applies to this trope?

edited 7th Mar '15 11:18:14 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
CaveCat One cool canine Since: Apr, 2011
One cool canine
#195: Mar 7th 2015 at 2:09:14 PM

[up] Thank you for that, Crazysamaritan, so I'll try it again. This time, once more with feeling.

  1. The recurring pattern is: Two or more characters get into an argument via song.
  2. Creators use that pattern to present this hidden information: That what the characters are arguing about becomes a major plot point of the story.
  3. Audiences connect this hidden information to Real Life by: Knowing that arguments lead to trouble.
  4. The consistency of the hidden information is: Genre Consistency
  5. The hidden information is needed in: Musicals, operas, and Musical Episodes.
  6. The information hidden in the recurring pattern is similar to: Let's Duet, Counterpoint Duet, Call-and-Response Song.

edited 7th Mar '15 2:21:46 PM by CaveCat

Sometimes, you just can't win them all.
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#196: Mar 8th 2015 at 7:31:25 AM

~rodneyAnonymous, ~Kyle Jacobs, ~Madrugada, ~Darksilverhawk: What do you think about Quarreling Song now?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#197: Mar 11th 2015 at 12:37:42 AM

I think it's better but that Cave Cat was steered to those changes and remain unconvinced she understands what the problem is.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
CaveCat One cool canine Since: Apr, 2011
One cool canine
#198: Mar 11th 2015 at 9:15:01 AM

[up] Yes, I do. I understand now that a trope is something that a creator uses to encapsulate something to the audience, as sort of a form of storytelling or to add something to the story.

Sometimes, you just can't win them all.
CaveCat One cool canine Since: Apr, 2011
One cool canine
#199: Mar 20th 2015 at 9:41:21 AM

I'm waiting to see what happens next now. I still need to know if I can try to write the current description of a trope and make some edits to it, or if that's still not a good idea.

Sometimes, you just can't win them all.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#200: Mar 28th 2015 at 10:34:08 AM

It's still not a good idea. Your first attempts are better than they were, but they still aren't wiki-quality.

Pick a trope you haven't been coached through and, using those questions as the framework, give us a proposed write-up here. Remember to answer all of the questions; remember that if the answers to two or more of them are the same, you may be into Chairs territory, and remember that you don't get any extra points for making the write-up only two or three sentences long. It's more important that it be clear and complete than that it be short.

edited 28th Mar '15 10:35:17 AM by Madrugada


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