Like I said, the editing doesn't help, but it's implied she was a woman with a unhealthy fixation on the Joker, but the electric torture was what left her as brain-fried as she is in the movie, given it justaposes scenes of her torture with her Laughing Mad and the guards observing she's nuts.
Regardless of what drove her insane, the electric torture completely destroys any chance of the relationship being "Bonnie & Clyde". It's just straight-up abuse (it's electric torture) being treated as a-ok.
edited 15th Aug '16 9:16:02 PM by Gaon
"All you Fascists bound to lose."They basically did the exact opposite of what the Joker/Harley dynamic is in the comics. I think that it's yet again another example of them not being willing to go all the way with the premise and trying to "tame things up."
Given what I've seen of Ayer's other work, this was probably a studio thing rather than his idea imo.
Yeah... The Joker doesn't give a shit about Harley. He only cares about her as far as manipulating her and because she keeps coming back to him. He wouldn't pull a big operation to rescue her TWICE. That's not his thing.
And, yeah, the brain scramble thing bugged me too. First off, I can't see Dr. Quinzel getting Joker a machine gun. She hasn't become Harley yet. And, considering the Joker had to have goons strap her down so he could fry her brain, she STILL wasn't Harley yet at that point.
The Ace Chemicals scene bugged me for two reasons. One, I don't think the dialogue was very Joker like. He wouldn't have this whole 'Dom/Sub-esque' say please thing. He'd have a 'Tell it to me with a punch line!'. In fact, that's what I wanted him to say instead of the oddly more sexual phrasing.
The other thing that bugged me is that he jumped in after her. Her jumping at all would have made him laugh his ass of and he would have written her off as dead after that. If she survived, he'd find it more hilarious but he wouldn't do anything to actually save her.
Comics Joker would and has gone out his way for Harley in the past, but largely because he sees her as belonging to him.
The best way I've ever seen someone put Joker and Harley's comics relationship is that Joker does love her, but it's in no way, shape or form the positive thing it would be for anyone else nor good for Harley in any way, because even Joker's approach to being attached to someone is abusive and horrible. And because he finds it even more hilarious to do horrible things to people that actually matter to him than he does in doing such things to random people who would be disposable to him, and he already finds the latter hysterical.
Comics Joker would not, for instance, dive into a vat of chemicals to save Harley. But he wouldn't leave either. Most likely, he would probably sit on the ledge and cackle as she suffered, and then when she survived would laugh all the harder because her not dying like she was supposed to was impressive and ironic. And he would see that as the perfect reason to stay with her, because she gets what makes him laugh.
Imo, Joker should be at his creepiest and most twisted when he actually does seem to care about someone (that one surprisingly sad scene in Emperor Joker aside, though it still emphasizes how universal his nihilism is). It definitely shouldn't make him more sympathetic - he almost comes off as heroic in this movie in his quest to save her from Waller, and there's little to counteract Harley's claim that her mindset is the way people should be looking at things, which was unnerving in ways I doubt were intentional.
edited 15th Aug '16 11:33:06 PM by KnownUnknown
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While interpretations popularized by Mad Love has the Joker never truly caring about Harley Quinn and only using her as a tool, one has to keep in there was another interpretation in regards to this relationship. Namely that deep down in that black heart of his, the Joker does care about Harley Quinn even if he hates to admit it. Even during the B:TAS first three seasons, there were some hints to this Alternate Character Interpretation, such as the Joker actually being impressed that Harley Quinn was willing to kill him in Harlequinade, and Harley Quinn admitting that the Joker showed a more fun way of life instead of the boring psychiatrist job she had in the same episode.
To me, the idea of the Joker actually having some genuine feelings for Harley Quinn instead of being a textbook psychopath using others for his own personal agenda makes the Joker more complex and unpredictable in my opinion, which is what the Joker is. He's not some ordinary criminal that one could pinpointed as an agent of chaos, he is a super villain that is chaos incarnate himself. On one day, he and the Penguin would be best friends and partners-in-crime. On another day, they would be at each other's throats.
edited 15th Aug '16 11:53:37 PM by Shadao
If Joker "loves her," then it's in a really egotistical, narcissistic twisted way. Like she's utterly devoted to him, and keeps coming back to him and putting up with his crap, and he likes that. It feeds his ego, and that's a big reason why he keeps her around.
A better way to end things imo would have been to have Harley go back to her cell, and then find a gift or letter from the Joker and that convinces her not to give up on him. Also, it'd be a nice callback to the ending of Mad Love.
I feel is more like mutual parasitim that anything else, "he/she is mine and mine along, we will do whatever the hell we like it and fuck you if you try to stop me" the scene with the crminal put it better
" she STILL wasn't Harley yet at that point."
on the other hand she smile and said will go with it, showing how adicted she is to his Mister J
"In fact, that's what I wanted him to say instead of the oddly more sexual phrasing."
I think it was more in selfish way "you would die for me?" is more surrending to madness, for what I learn in the novelization it was a joke to get rid of her but he return to it because he feel something.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"The editing was so confusing that I thought for a moment, the electro shocks happened to her in prison in a misguided attempt to "cure" her. That's what angered me so much about the start of the movie, the movie throws all those scenes at you which you have to bring into a context on your own, which is especially difficult if you are not a comic book reader (for example, I didn't understand that this was acid the two jumped into), while at the same time you have this narration which actually explains next to nothing. I mean, yeah, it explains how Harley meet the Joker but it is never shown how she actually fell in love with him, what is it what fascinates her about him. The only conclusion you can make is that he somehow screwed with her mind somehow, but then the movie goes romanticizing their relationship at every step.
To be fair, the original Batman: The Animated Series (not counting TNBA season which adapted Mad Love) only alludes to Harley Quinn's origin, which is essentially she was a psychiatrist who apparently found fun and freedom in the Joker's world of madness (and not by some Freudian Excuse of how Batman was a big bully to sweet lovable Joker). A far cry to what actually happens to Mad Love.
And in a movie sharing Deadshot's backstory and Diablo's backstory as well as a bunch of other characters like Flagg and Waller, it would be best to highlight the aspects that make Harley Quinn Harley Quinn. Enough to get regular audience to know basic to not get lost, but still leaves a tease regarding to the full context of Harley and the Joker (that might warrant its own film).
From a common viewer, Harley was once a psychiatrist who tackled on the Joker only to fall in love him. And it's quite clear the relationship isn't really healthy on both sides, considering that it was Harley who gave Joker the machine gun to break out of Arkham (long before she even got the electrical torture). It's a messed up relationship that isn't really simple as any other abusive relationship. We see that Harley Quinn is just as brutal and nasty when it comes to beating up people, as her Slasher Smile with the mallet is any indication, while the Joker actually shows conflict on whether or not he wants to save Harley (which makes him more unpredictable).
That's the thing though: I don't think that the general audience does need an explanation who Harley used to be aso. I would have been perfectly fine with them just introducing her as having been the famous henchwoman of the Joker and then they could have spend the movie to explore her current obsessive love for him. For example a good narrative would have been Harley describing to another member of the Suicide Squad a moment in which she felt that the Joker showed her love, while the scene it plays over shows the reality of the situation in question. That would have transported the two information the audience needs at this point: She is delusional, and she is in abusive relationship. More isn't needed at this point. That she used to be a psychiatrist aso is something they could and should explore in a solo movie, especially since she at no point uses the skills someone with such an education would have.
x5 He cares about her, but as long as she's there. If she leaves the room, to hell with her. He'd only stage some rescue operation for her if A) she was needed in some big plan of his or B) it was to demonstrate how much he owns her and her devotion to him and that she doesn't belong to anyone else. So, its a kind of confusing. I doubt he'd lose much sleep if she died taking a bullet for him.
If someone hurts her in front of him, he'll kill them to demonstrate that that's his property and he'll abuse her if he wants to, but no one else can.He loves what she brings to him and what brings out of him, but doesn't care about her
I think his surprise in those instances were more that Harley WASN'T being devoted to him and under his thumb. He's surprised he's pushed her to a limit he didn't think existed. She not only took charge, but took charge AGAINST Joker.
x4 Exactly.
x3 Oh, that bugged me too. I think ![]()
gets the problem. We're shown a lot of scenes with little to no context and chronology and its confusing. I don't think the Joker would have cared enough about her as Dr. Quinzel to do the shock treatment on her either. He'd probably do the same thing he'd do to anyone he'd manipulated: Kill them. I don't think she would have had his attention at that point.
She's shown fighting them when they're putting her down on the table so that suggests to me she's not Harley yet really. I took the 'Bring it' line to be kind of her accepting her fate and spitting in the face of her attacker. Which isn't really a Harley thing? idk.
If they wanted to do the vat scene, they should have had her devoted to him but Joker making a big joke out of it. Its a victim walking right up to him for death! A killing joke being handed to you. He convinces her to go into the vat thinking her suicide would be a goddamn riot. Hell, if they wanted to make her more of a victim, they could have had him push her in.
Like, Harley wants to jump but she starts showing trepidation. Joker tells her to jump or he'll finish the joke for her but she's nervously looking over the edge. It keeps cutting between Joker yelling at her to jump and Harley getting nervous. Cut. Yell. Cut. Nervous. Joker groans and punches her (Punch line, get it?) over the edge into the vat. He sits on the ledge laughing his goddamn ass off and the vat shows no signs of her coming out any time soon.
Joker and his goons come down from above and pass by the vats and are leaving to get into their cars. Harley's dead. They don't care. Suddenly, there's a splash and the camera cuts to behind them. Harley's crawled out of the vat and stands behind them in her trademark pose. "You weren't going to leave without me, now were ya, Mr. J?" she says. Cut to an EXTREME Close Up of the Joker's mouth as it morphs into his trademark smile.
At that point, I think you have all of the major trademarks of their relationship established. Harley is devoted to Joker, but she has her moments of doubt. Joker is blase and dismissive of her unless she surprises him and comes back after his abuse.
I think one of the more major things the film was missing was a core theme stringing between the main characters. Considering the title and the situation, they could have strung a good theme of abuse, the world creating the monsters we fight, and a 'suicide' of sorts that ends the person and creates the monster. Harley would be the most obvious in this trend, followed by June Moon and El Diablo. Waylon Jones' backstory also would fit this idea... if they'd bothered making him interesting. I'd probably take the 'Own it' line to a larger presence for each of the characters.
It would have been an interesting dynamic. I probably would have started the film off with Waller going to her dinner meeting since the scenes before it felt redundant. Maybe not do the flashbacks since a lot of parts felt like 'Let's go the EACH of the characters' version of flashback/fighting/dreams' and it got a bit repetitive. Maybe, similar to how Harley looks over the ledge and flashes back to the vat scene, pick out something significant (though, maybe more contextual) to jump from the present day mission to the character's relevant backstory.
Harley's backstory here was more akin to the New 52 origin of the character.
Psychiatrist that Joker talks into falling in love with him, then tortures, then vat of acid (except in this version, she jumps in for him instead of him throwing her in; both versions show that that was an attempt to kill her).
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."The way the movie presented Harley and Joker's relationship was not great. If they were going for abuse it was too ambiguous. Harleen Quinzel was too much of a seemingly willing accomplice even before the torture, and her lines before the torture are ambiguous as to whether she's accepting of being shocked or trying to be defiant. And then instead of getting pushed into the vat she decides to fall in. And then the Joker can't go through with leaving her to die, And then in flashbacks the Joker seems to get angry with people disrespecting Harley! Not to mention the scene where Joker seems genuinely distraught that Harley isn't around. It's almost the Bonnie and Clyde angle... Except for the electroshock. It's weird and indecisive.
Oissu!As usual, grain of salt. Jared is really, really bothered.
edited 16th Aug '16 1:17:01 PM by Cruherrx
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."Keep in mind that we supposedly see all of the flashbacks through the eyes of Harley herself. There's a good chance she's remembering things the way she wants to, not the way things actually went. The fact that we see it all through her perspective is almost more terrifying because we get how she sees it; through some twisted interpretation, the Joker does care about her. The movie doesn't go out of its way to yell at us that "This is bad! This is an abusive relationship!" because we can figure that our for ourselves. It's just that Harley can't (or she can, and is in denial, which the movie also alludes to, she seems incredibly self-aware), and therefore the narrative presents the relationship as she sees it and how Joker sees it; a conventional Rescue Romance.
We've still got several movies and opportunities down the line for Harley to give up on the Joker and recognize how wrong it all is. To take that route this early in the verse would rob us of seeing that character development in future movies.
"A king has no friends. Only subjects and enemies."The movie is ambiguous but the marketing is full out "THIS SHIT BE ROMANTIC"
So, uh.
Forever liveblogging the Avengers![]()
If you think about it, the flashbacks depict Joker as he is in the current times. Even though David Ayer says the Joker had the Damaged tattoo and metal grills on his teeth as a result of Batman beating the crap out of him for killing Robin, which Harley Quinn is an accomplice of that very crime.
edited 16th Aug '16 12:41:18 PM by Shadao
Honestly, seeing as what the Joker and Harley did in the B:TAS verse, killing Robin was probably a mercy...
Oissu!
They must've removed the post for some reason. Well, a site reported on it after I posted so here you go.
So, I went in with low expectations after the reviews. And... it was a bad movie. Not particularly surprised. Editing was bad and plot was nonsense of course, but the premise was the biggest problem. Why is the Suicide Squad going up against a world ending threat? They should have a black ops mission that needs plausible deniability and normal soldiers would be reluctant to do. So we've got the world's best marksman, a guy with fire powers, some dude with crocodile powers, a woman with a magic sword, and Boomerang and Harley? A dude who throws boomerangs and a crazy lady whose superpower is apparently wielding a bat. The movie didn't give a good explanation as to why Waller wanted those two.
Well, I came for Harley, and she delivered, so that was good. Deadshot was alright, but too heroic for what he's supposed to be. Flagg was okay. Croc was there. Boomerang was there and had a funny scene or two. Diablo was definitely the surprise hit. Easily the strongest character arc of the film. Katana was there. Why did they never go into her stake in this? Enchantress was no better or worse than the average lame Marvel villain. Waller was solid, though at one point I thought they were going a bit far in making her evil. Joker shouldn't have been in the movie beyond flashbacks. He doesn't contribute anything, yet takes over the scenes he's in.
Hard to believe Man of Steel is the standard the DCEU needs to live up to, but that's where we are. It was enjoyable enough for Harley and the other characters, but I'd like a genuinely good film from DC again please.
On another note, it's weird how Harley is probably DC's most popular female character now. I doubt Dini and Timm saw that coming.
