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Are we cynical about superheroes?

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NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#576: Apr 14th 2015 at 6:26:41 PM

As a matter of fact, overall, most specially taking into account the Third World (which does hold most of the world's population) and past times (where crime detection was a joke compared to today's best police procedure efforts) most of the crime in real life either goes unpunished or gets sentences unfitting the misdeed. If anything fiction is overall more optimistic in that regard.

ElkhornTheDowntrodden Since: Apr, 2015
#577: May 1st 2015 at 6:30:49 PM

Know what I think is part of the problem? Throughout all the ages of comic books, we got thesis->antithesis->synthesis. Come the Dark Age, however, we get thesis, we get antithesis... but the people writing thesis comics just screamed "ANTITHESIS BAD!". And thus, no synthesis. Years later, we get DiDio and Quesada, who want to make the universes they preside over more like they were when they started reading comics. Hence, we get things like One More Day from Marvel and legacy characters getting thrown under the bus from DC.

edited 1st May '15 6:31:15 PM by ElkhornTheDowntrodden

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#578: May 1st 2015 at 6:37:02 PM

they don't really seem to care how BAD they screwed up in some of these characters, as long as they got what they wanted.

one more day is just mind-boggling on so many levels to me, not only because it was completely unnecessary to have spider man be single again, they opted for the most stupid, contrived route possible to make it happen. Mephisto doesn't belong in Spider-Man's universe, and he shouldn't be making a deal with him at all, that's fucking AWFUL. Not only that but the story itself just has misstep after misstep by making Aunt May the person he wants to save and not MJ herself (this would have made the story a lot stronger), have Peter go to SEVERAL people who by all accounts should be able to help him but somehow can't in a stupid attempt to make it look hopeless, peter himself comes off as a petulant manchild who DOESN'T take up responsibility for his actions, etc.

it's like everything that could go wrong went REALLY wrong. they refused to let spider-man be an ADULT just so he can be some sort of escapist outlet for them.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#579: May 1st 2015 at 7:28:26 PM

[up] Spidey has grown as a hero and as a man, why can't he get married and have a decent life? Even Spidey's demographic has grown up and now have grandchildren.

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#580: May 1st 2015 at 9:18:39 PM

They want to keep pretending they have a chance of ever hooking kids back the way they did in 1968. But with a lot more death and violence.

Aldo930 Professional Moldy Fig/Curmudgeon from Quahog, R.I. Since: Aug, 2013
Professional Moldy Fig/Curmudgeon
#581: May 2nd 2015 at 4:07:05 AM

They're a little too far gone for that.

Comic books are now associated with adult nerds, pretty much.

"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."
Robbery Since: Jul, 2012
#582: May 2nd 2015 at 7:14:48 PM

I think it's less of comics association with adult nerds as that kids have a lot more competing for their attention. Watching TV or playing a video game is less demanding than reading of any kind (wow that makes me sound old).

As far as the cardboard prison thing, that's a function of serial fiction, not super hero comics per se. Super hero comics have just been going on for a loooong time. And really, it's only a problem because those same adult nerds keep insisting on harping about it so that they can feel clever.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#583: May 2nd 2015 at 9:16:59 PM

[up] To be fair, Adult Nerds that grew up with the franchise are now comicbook writers themselves.

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
ElkhornTheDowntrodden Since: Apr, 2015
#584: May 3rd 2015 at 12:39:57 AM

What all y'alls are discussing isn't a problem in its own right. It's a symptom of the dialectic's disruption.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#585: May 3rd 2015 at 6:36:48 AM

[up][up]plus even younger audiences who are trying to get into superheroes may be just as judging of those tropes.

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#586: May 3rd 2015 at 8:08:09 AM

Indeed. It's a bit counter-intuitive to try and reach out to new audiences, only to greet them with grandfather clauses they'd have no reason to accept. Coming from any other genre, it wouldn't make much sense as to why it's considered that bad to just shoot the bad guy when the opportunity presents itself, or why demands for some oversight concerning people shooting lasers out of their eyes should be so unwarranted.

And that's not even going into the aforementioned antithesis disparagement stories, where some capes spend more time preaching against (utterly strawmanned versions of) the competition, while the actual issue is either evaded or solved by a single-use plot device or lucky contrivance. It feels as though writers want to address the critiques presented in Watchmen or The Killing Joke, only without actually addressing them. A lot of genres reconstruct themselves after deconstructive works, but there's a difference between reconstructing, and just gluing stuff together and pretending it ain't broke.

In short, a lot of the conventions of superhero comics are off-putting to potential or casual readers, and the competition from other genres - particularly urban fantasy and cyberpunk which feature similar themes - is now tougher than ever.

And it's not as if the superhero genre can't handle change - ever since Iron Man hit the screens, a load of preconceived notions and attitudes started getting brushed off, without it bringing about the Apocalypse... yet. Even with Man of Steel, the general criticism was that the film was simply too bleak and overly serious, while complainers about the supposedly sacred superheroic non-lethality were a vocal minority at best. It's more like the superhero comic industry is faced with the choice of either taking a long-shot and alienating its current reader base, or dying a slow death in an increasingly competitive market. Personally, I think the former option, risky as it is, is still the more worthwhile.

VampireBuddha Calendar enthusiast from Ireland (Wise, aged troper) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Calendar enthusiast
#587: May 3rd 2015 at 9:10:04 AM

complainers about the supposedly sacred superheroic non-lethality were a vocal minority at best.

From what I heard, those complaints weren't so much "Superheroes should never ever ever kill", but rather "Superman in particular should never kill."

Ukrainian Red Cross
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#588: May 3rd 2015 at 9:14:07 AM

Why the obsession with the non-lethality issue? There are many far more pressing problems with the public's acceptance of superhero comics than your recurring pet peeve. Frankly, the way you keep going to it over and over makes this discussion cyclical and repetitive.

Robbery Since: Jul, 2012
#589: May 3rd 2015 at 9:33:56 AM

Frankly, I don't think kids have any problem with any aspect of traditional super-hero comics except impenetrable continuity. You can keep the unlicensed vigilantes and secret identities and incredible powers, just make it reasonably approachable. Remember when continuity was an asterisk and an "editor's note" box? I'd like to see DC's next 5-year plan be dedicated to stories that are actually about stuff, and not about fixing/ changing/ shuffling continuity issues or "reimagining" something for the umpteenth time.

And actually, I've never heard anyone complain about Superman's non-lethality who wasn't a jaded old comics fan. That's just another example of fanboy-wank run wild.

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#590: May 3rd 2015 at 10:17:40 AM

There are many far more pressing problems with the public's acceptance of superhero comics than your recurring pet peeve.
Which I just entailed in general, what with them being blatantly obvious grandfathered sacred cows, rather than a matter of any moral concerns or personal preferences on my behalf. Personally, the one guy I'd fault for his stance is Batman, since his whole scary shtick is undermined by it, and the way he fancies himself a detective means he usually arrives after the damage is done, making him little more than the villain's taxi driver back to the loony bin. Since nobody's bothered by character resurrection these days, I just think killing the bad guy makes for a better story than letting them gloat over their contractual immunity.

Otherwise, my own concerns have to do not so much with continuity per se, but with cohesion. As in, it would be nice for stories to be more independent, rather than constantly be curved into tie-ins or crossovers, or endlessly decompressed story arcs. DC doesn't even do recaps nowadays. That's why I'm generally fond of superhero video games, films and animated series, but actual comics are hard to get into. So again, it's an industry issue rather than a genre issue.

edited 3rd May '15 11:27:04 AM by indiana404

ElkhornTheDowntrodden Since: Apr, 2015
#591: May 3rd 2015 at 11:28:01 AM

Remember when continuity was an asterisk and an "editor's note" box?

This is such a simple fix. WHY HAS NOBODY DONE THIS?!

I have no issue with superheroes not killing, within reason. Batman not killing the Joker is fine with me, but not Batman consistently preventing other people from killing the Joker. I'm okay with the Joker sticking around, just have people try to get rid of him. Make people react to his wanton disregard for everyone else.

I think a lot of people's problem with Batman in particular not killing is from two things:

  • Batman writers', from the Bronze Age on, perennial misunderstanding of what insanity actually entails. Introducing Arkham was, in retrospect, one of the worst ideas in Batman history.
  • Morrison making Batgod mainstream in his Justice League run. Before, it could be dismissed as either Silver Age silliness or Frank Miller being Frank Miller. After... well, now that Batman is borderline omnipotent provided he has enough prep time (and he always does), his A-list enemies have to maintain parity...

edited 3rd May '15 11:31:19 AM by ElkhornTheDowntrodden

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#592: May 3rd 2015 at 11:42:29 AM

The key issue is that superheroes were created as entertainment for children, but are now marketed primarily at an adult or teenage audience. To make that shift in audience work, creative teams generally take one of two paths:

1) They try to explain or re-contextualize some of the more childish aspects of the character or their history so that they make more sense in an adult narrative. This is a tricky thing to do, and often results in convoluted and unnatural story progression that distracts from the actual point of the story.

2) They simply jettison the more childish aspects of the character. This has two problems. First, long-time fans of the character are likely to disagree with what they decide to get rid of, what they decide to add, and what they decide to keep, and given the whole Running the Asylum thing, some of those displeased fans are in a position to actually reverse those decisions. Second, when they know they're making a story darker and more adult than its source material, many creators feel compelled to draw attention to this fact, to show off how different they're being, which can easily feel overdone, self-congratulatory, or just generally take people out of the story. We see the same thing happen a lot when people decide to do adult renditions of classic Fairy Tales.

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#593: May 3rd 2015 at 12:00:45 PM

Batman not killing the Joker is fine with me, but not Batman consistently preventing other people from killing the Joker. I'm okay with the Joker sticking around, just have people try to get rid of him. Make people react to his wanton disregard for everyone else.
Ditto. There's something rather annoyingly hypocritical in how DC capes avoid legal oversight at all times, only to try and monopolize the way other vigilantes conduct their own operations. Conversely, the way modern Joker is basically a walking deus angst machina idiot ball dispenser pretty much makes any story with him on the cover into a gut punch for anyone hoping for a decent conflict resolution. The latest arc had every other Arkhamite team up to take the clown down, so further cooperations with him will require even more forced developments; his mysterious origins remained mysterious, big surprise there ; and the concluding monologue basically stated that Batman is pretty much a masochist actively wanting to struggle pointlessly until his death. I can see the draw for potential audiences, that's for sure.

In a way, the Batman-Joker conflict is quite illustrative of how the industry clings to childish trappings and attitudes regarding its heroes, yet makes the villains into such complete monsters that even the Punisher's methodology feels forgiving. It's simply imbalanced. Either go into full cyberpunk mode and let the heroes dish out as good as they get, or walk the Lighter and Softer path with villains that are still nasty, but not too evil.

edited 3rd May '15 12:02:43 PM by indiana404

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#595: May 3rd 2015 at 2:36:14 PM

Yeah, about that - the pretentious symbolism and quasi-religious themes DC just loves stuffing into its stories may have been interesting back in the Bronze Age, but now it's just insane. Even Superman is no more a divine figure than Thor or the Martian Manhunter. He has big honking muscles and a generally decent disposition, but that doesn't make him into a god, nor his opinion into a gospel for everyone to follow. Instead, this sort of attitude just makes him an annoying and preachy fictional character, no different from the protagonists of Chick Tracts. And the stories themselves become meta-textual polemics, basically about telling people why they should read traditional cape comics, rather than giving an actual entertaining reason as to why they would.

Robbery Since: Jul, 2012
#596: May 3rd 2015 at 2:41:19 PM

Well, take a lot at most Gods from most ancient mythologies (the ones who aren't still worshipped...mostly); they are people with big muscles (sometimes metaphorically speaking, sometimes not) and generally colossally self-involved dispositions. Of course, those stories were not necessarily part of the religious canon that worshiped those figures, but the inventions of writers.

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#597: May 3rd 2015 at 3:10:06 PM

Thing is, if I wanted to read ancient myths, I'd read ancient myths; if I wanted a figure to worship, I'd go to church - since unlike superheroes, these tales and figures actually have some historical and cultural value and relevance beyond light entertainment. What I want from superhero stories is for them to be about superheroes, not gods - and it's clear that's not a difficult accomplishment when even the Powerpuff girls can show how it's done.

VampireBuddha Calendar enthusiast from Ireland (Wise, aged troper) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Calendar enthusiast
#598: May 3rd 2015 at 3:58:17 PM

Frankly, I don't think kids have any problem with any aspect of traditional super-hero comics except impenetrable continuity. You can keep the unlicensed vigilantes and secret identities and incredible powers, just make it reasonably approachable. Remember when continuity was an asterisk and an "editor's note" box?

Funnily enough, I was reading Simpsons Comics Colossal Compendium vol 2 today, and one of the stories in it is Radioactive Man #100, which has a LOT of jokes about that very subject.

Ukrainian Red Cross
ElkhornTheDowntrodden Since: Apr, 2015
#599: May 3rd 2015 at 11:43:15 PM

Was there any in-universe reason the post-Magog supers were a mindless destructive horde?

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#600: May 4th 2015 at 6:59:04 AM

Basically lack of oversight.


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