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Mar 18th 2020 at 5:04:57 PM

So I guess my theory of Echo being Liao is probably a bit off. I do wonder if she will have Liao's memories though.

Nevertheless interesting origin.

Though it does raise an interesting question, who attacked the lab and why?

Liao's diary from the teaser places the timeline at least a few years after the end of the Omnic crises. Talon is a possibility, but I kind of wonder if Vishkar is involved in some capacity since Echo seems to have a connection to Vishkar.

fasoman1996 Hamston Black from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Hamston Black
Mar 18th 2020 at 5:39:54 PM

Talon has been around the time Genji and Hanzo's dad was the head of the Shimada Clan so at the last they have been a thing for a couple decades now.

I dont even know anymore
Mar 18th 2020 at 7:23:36 PM

It's likely Talon or Vishkar, or both.

fasoman1996 Hamston Black from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Hamston Black
Mar 19th 2020 at 10:03:06 AM

Echo gameplay revealed

And to everyone's dissapointment, she is a DPS.

I dont even know anymore
fredhot16 from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Mar 19th 2020 at 10:20:14 AM

[up]How dare you.

Suspension of disbelief: I can believe in time travel but it still has to make sense with it's own rules.
Mar 19th 2020 at 11:27:38 AM

I am not happy she isn't a support, her kit is interesting in practice though, if you know how to play a lot of heroes from all 3 categories the possibilities are endless

Mar 19th 2020 at 12:41:42 PM

Blizzard: Long DPS queue times are a real problem and we're working hard to find a solution.

Also Blizzard: Here's a new DPS hero to add to the role that already has twice as many heroes as the others!

I dunno, I tend to get annoyed when people talk about Blizzard and the Overwatch designers like they're stupid. The game's not flawless, it's had its issues since before launch. But it's an amazing game that I still love and actively play four and a half years(!) after its release. They're obviously doing a lot right. I might not agree with absolutely every move they make, but clearly they're not stupid. Clearly. Right?

And then they release yet ANOTHER DPS hero and I'm forced to wonder: was there NO ONE on the team with both the intelligence to realize that yet another DPS hero is not what the game needs and the authority to point it out and make it stick?

So here I am, trying to reconcile the following ideas:

  1. Blizzard is not stupid
  2. Blizzard is releasing yet another DPS hero
  3. Releasing yet another DPS hero is stupid

And all three of those ideas seem irrefutable and yet mutually exclusive.

shigmiya64 Somebody get this freaking duck away from me! from a settlement that needs our help, General Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Somebody get this freaking duck away from me!
Mar 19th 2020 at 1:10:15 PM

AFAIK Blizzard is always testing and prototyping new heroes behind the scenes, and what gets the go-ahead to be really developed isn't just determined by what roles are needed; what the creatives are passionate about and what the testers are finding fun to play also has a large influence. Consider that Ashe is in the game because they fell in love with her while making McCree's short, and McCree himself is in the game because Matt Mercer saw concept art for an undeveloped cowboy guy and said, "I'd like to voice that guy."

Edited by shigmiya64 on Mar 19th 2020 at 4:13:19 AM

InkDagger Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Mar 19th 2020 at 1:17:28 PM

True. I just wish they might... game the system a bit? Only prototype and try out things behind the scenes that are working towards Defense and Support roles?

Though, I blame Echo a bit less because my understanding is she was supposed to come out when Ashe did so she's been in development longer than the DPS issue has really been in high gear.

Mar 19th 2020 at 1:53:01 PM

2/2/2 role lock has been in place since July of last year. That was the moment when it became blindingly obvious that there was a serious imbalance in the number of playable heroes in the three roles. That was the moment to say, "okay, no new DPS heroes until this is addressed." That was like nine months ago.

Blizzard looked at Symmetra years after release and said, "You know, this idea of a support that doesn't heal might have made sense at the time, but it doesn't fit the direction the game is going now." And they reworked her as a DPS with some support elements.

If they can do that, surely they can look at Echo nine months before release and say, "You know, adding another DPS hero might have made sense we started designing this hero, but it doesn't fit the direction the game is going now," and either rework Echo for another role, or shelve Echo and focus on a tank or support concept instead.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 19th 2020 at 1:53:46 AM

Mar 19th 2020 at 1:57:10 PM

Technically you can play Echo as a support with her ult but its really not ideal, you mainly want her ult for other ults. The most useful support ults to have would be Ana, Zen's, and Lucio's. This isn't even mentioning how if the enemy shoots you enough you instantly lose the mimic ult.

I will admit her being DPS does disappoint me. I always envisioned her as either a old Symmetra kind of support, heals with shields. Or like Ying from Paladins, can create clones or illusions of herself to heal others.

fasoman1996 Hamston Black from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Hamston Black
Mar 19th 2020 at 2:11:51 PM

It doesnt help that Soujorn looks to be yet another DPS so they better get to work on those tanks and healers

I dont even know anymore
Mar 19th 2020 at 2:18:05 PM

I am pretty sure she is, rifle and a cybernetic arm canyon? Maybe you can twist that into a tank but unless her cybernetics shoot healing balls doubt she could be a support in anyway.

Edited by Wispy on Mar 19th 2020 at 2:18:18 AM

Mar 19th 2020 at 2:33:05 PM

Technically you can play Echo as a support

Unless you're playing No Limits or Quickplay Classic, then no, no you cannot play her as a support. You cannot select her if you are in the Support role. That's the whole problem.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 19th 2020 at 2:36:04 AM

InkDagger Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Mar 19th 2020 at 2:39:52 PM

I think you misunderstand what I meant. Ashe was announced and released around November 2018. Based on interviews I remember at the time, it sounds like Echo was supposed to release then, but wasn't working out and Ashe was rushed into development to shore up the open slot. With that in mind, Echo has probably been in development for about two years now.

While, yes, the 2/2/2 and DPS issues have been acknowledged for nearly a year now, Echo and her kit were probably too far into development (especially if they had really aimed for a November 2018 release window) to try and shift her to a whole new kit slotting her into support or tank.

Particularly if that would easily end up with a bigger mess of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Mar 19th 2020 at 2:45:16 PM

If their previous concept for her just plain didn't fit as a tank or support, then better to shelve her and focus on a character concept that DOES work as a tank or support. They're obviously working on more than one character concept at a time. If this one isn't what the game needs (which it isn't), then focus on another one.

"But she's been in development for two years!"

Sunk cost fallacy. Better to stop throwing good dev effort after bad and start developing something that will address the game's glaring role imbalances. Like, say, about three each new tanks and supports.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 19th 2020 at 2:48:47 AM

Mar 19th 2020 at 3:35:00 PM

Looking at Echo, I’m thinking she’s definitely going to be nerfed before live. She just seems like she can do a lot of things well, the alt is insane, looks like she’ll be easy to use and the only weakness I can see is that she has to “combo” damage.

I’m not too bothered she’s a Damage character, last one was Ashe almost two years ago and Echo is overall more interesting. Maybe they can take this time for finally revert Sym back to support (please?)

slimcoder Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Mar 19th 2020 at 3:39:37 PM

Huh looking at her, you'd never assume Echo was an assault bot.

Can you see all of me? Walk into my mystery. Do you remember me? Capture you or set you free I am all. I am all... I am all of me
fasoman1996 Hamston Black from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Hamston Black
Mar 19th 2020 at 11:05:45 PM

Her hand kinda gets in the way of her critbox and that annoys me to no end.

Stop doomg the nazi salute echo and let me headshot you dammit!

I dont even know anymore
Mar 20th 2020 at 9:23:03 AM

So now that my eyes have rolled back into their sockets after learning that Echo is Yet Another DPS Hero(tm) and I've gotten a chance to actually mess with her abilities some, some theorycrafting-type thoughts:

  • That ult is getting nerfed. Guarantee it. This is another instance of Blizzard putting something out in a clearly OP state so that they can nerf it back to where they always intended it to be, which would have SEEMED OP except that they introduced it to people in an even more OP state. My prediction is that they make it so that she stops gaining ult charge as the duplicated hero after the first ult; no more quadruple pulse bombs as Tracer or double gravs as Zarya. They might also toy with removing invincibility frames or have her stay dead when killed as the duplicated hero instead of respawning as herself if that's not enough.
  • I predict at least one other nerf to the rest of her kit, either her mobility or her damage. I'm hoping the latter.
  • Another flying hero to pal around with broadens Mercy's applicability, which is nice I suppose. Be prepared for low ranks to get steamrolled by "Mercho" or whatever we decide to call the new Pharmercy.
  • For that matter, how many flying (or at least, very mobile / vertical) heroes can we stack in one comp now? Winston/Ball + Dva, Pharah + Echo, Mercy + ??? Not sure who you put in that sixth slot. Probably Lucio, not because he actively does much to synergize with such a comp, but because anybody else lags so far behind that they become easy fodder.
  • Dva's going to become even more of a must-pick for a while, being the only tank that can do much against Echo. Sigma might be of some use with his flexible barrier, except that between sticky bombs and focusing beam Echo can tear through it solo. A nerf to Echo's damage or a buff to Sigma's barrier (it wouldn't take much) could address that though. Any other tank Echo can run circles around with her insane mobility.
  • Other potential counters: ranged hitscan DPS, Sombra (Echo seems a lot like Doomfist or Genji; absolutely crippled by a well-timed hack).

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 20th 2020 at 9:24:40 AM

shigmiya64 Somebody get this freaking duck away from me! from a settlement that needs our help, General Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Somebody get this freaking duck away from me!
Mar 20th 2020 at 12:49:57 PM

How exactly does her mobility work? It looked like it lets you ascend freely like in Valkyrie for 3 seconds, then puts you in an uncontrollable Angelic Descent state until you hit the ground?

Kiefen MINE! from Germany Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
MINE!
Mar 20th 2020 at 1:01:59 PM

It's a bit of everything, you get an initial boost similar to Phara's shift with the main difference that you will sorta dash towards the angle you are moving,but then you have a few seconds of controlled flight like Valkyrie.

The angelic decent is Echos passive and mostly works the same.

fasoman1996 Hamston Black from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Hamston Black
Mar 20th 2020 at 1:12:17 PM

They have somewhat different funtionalities. Mercy falls slower while echo falls faster but has better horizontal movement

I dont even know anymore
Mar 20th 2020 at 1:14:34 PM

It's sort of like a shorter-duration Dva boost, with a little more control like Valk flight, followed by a "glide" like Mercy's except not as potent (she falls faster than Mercy does even with the glide enabled).

The cooldown and timings are such that if you maximize height and glide for as long as possible, you touch down right around when you have it available to take off again, but you can't quite stay airborne indefinitely like Pharah can.

shigmiya64 Somebody get this freaking duck away from me! from a settlement that needs our help, General Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Somebody get this freaking duck away from me!
Mar 20th 2020 at 1:47:12 PM

Well I've never been able to stay in the air indefinitely with Pharah, either, regardless of how possible it is on paper.

Actually, it really bugs me that Echo's another Pharah counter. 5 of the 11 heroes they've added have been good Pharah counters. Pharah's my favorite character, conceptually, but it's practically impossible to find a game where someone on the enemy team hasn't picked someone who can shut her down.


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