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KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#301: May 18th 2019 at 12:30:16 AM

They're serviceable, but in a good way. The villains in these movies are defined mostly by being very dangerous individuals who find themselves slowly being cornered by someone even more dangerous and with nothing to lose. They are generally competent and engaging characters, with their only mistake being their decision to harass John Wick.

Chapter 3 is a pretty amazing movie, the action sequences alone are some of the finest I've ever seen. Several sequences earned applause in the theater ( the first fight in the library where he breaks the mans jaw and then his neck, with creative if brutal use of a book), and builds progressively on the world building and lore already established. Probably the ultimate Heroic Bloodshed movie, the movie keeps finding new ways to top itself.

If I were to criticize anything they would be extremely minor. I do think it suffers from Ending Fatigue, again the action is always top notch but the climactic fight didn't really explain itself as being the action climax, and so it goes on for 5 minutes and you're not sure if we are waiting for something else. Halle Berry also does well in her role as well as in the action, but compared to Keanu Reeves you can tell she isn't quite as convincing, relying more on good cinematography and stuntmen to make her seem more dangerous (a couple of her flying tackles you can see her "winding up" for it rather than being a spontaneous move).

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#302: May 18th 2019 at 1:37:25 AM

[up] I tend to always wince when I hear phrases like that. The "they made the fatal mistake of messing with this guy" thing.

It's really frustrating being a massive fan of action movies, but not really liking the unstoppable badass trope.

Kaze ni Nare!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#303: May 18th 2019 at 1:42:31 AM

Well they give pretty good fights in return. They go down swinging & there’s usually a cool Dragon to match him pound for pound.

Plus Wick isn’t really that invincible. He really gets the crap beaten outta him every movie.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
EruditeEsotericist Since: May, 2015
#304: May 18th 2019 at 2:13:03 AM

John Wick certainly has a Jason Bourne like inability to actually lose fights - but also like Bourne, fights are the only things he ever wins, his life beyond those moments being continually wrecked.

Indeed, the fact that being an unstoppable badass and being a functional human being are mutually exclusive has been an overarching theme of the series since the beginning.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#305: May 18th 2019 at 2:59:51 AM

The entire franchise generally has to be taken into account. One, John Wick's own sense of morality is extremely vague because they are focused on one goal in mind, killing much worse people. John was barely able to keep his own humanity before these people messed with him, and what emerges is not righteous or noble but vengeful and brutal. Two, the world of John Wick emphasizes Honor Among Thieves, the criminal underworld all know each other and they end up forced to take sides in this conflict. Wick himself is an isolated factor when it comes to power plays going on between these different organizations. His rampage in many ways is just an excuse to unveil a much more complex world, it's why they are working on a television show based around The Continental.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#306: May 18th 2019 at 6:49:22 AM

I'd say most villains are pretty engaging. Namely because all three films have a recurring trait of having one central antagonist and at least one The Rival to Wick himself with a more personal relationship. Big Bad Viggo from the first film has a interesting relationship with John Wick of mutual respect where both have some visible regret it had to come to this, and the fact Viggo himself technically didn't kickstart the conflict (his son did), he's just trying to survive the mess. Also a very comical character as the actor really plays up the sheer terror he has over the fact John Wick is after him. The rival of the first film is The Dragon Ms. Perkins is a fairly charismatic Dark Action Girl, but I think Viggo is really the big antagonistic force. His son Iosef is the just serviceable Hate Sink of the bunch.

Chapter 2 has Santino D'antonio who, much like Iosef, exists namely to embody the audience's loathing in the slimiest possible person. But where things really shine are with Wick's rivals Cassian and Ares, who are both pretty fascinating characters all in all.

Chapter 3 is probably the strongest with the antagonists overall, with highly foreboding Mouth of Sauron The Adjudicator and the amazingly charming fanboy Zero making for a amazing villain pair.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#307: May 18th 2019 at 9:10:43 AM

Casablanca was great. Loved the sort of eastern mysticism vibe it had. I'm wondering what the deal with the elder actually is. The High Table is made out of the various criminal organisations of the world, but this guy...just doesn't entirely fit. Maybe it's an intentional allusion to the old Assassins, which was mentioned in another scene.

Edited by TerminusEst on May 18th 2019 at 9:11:42 AM

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
EruditeEsotericist Since: May, 2015
#308: May 18th 2019 at 9:48:19 AM

I have to say there was some fantastic world building in this film. I loved the clarification regarding the coins, which have been used for such diverse values as a single drink and the disposal of a corpse. It makes a lot of sense that they're explicitly stated to not hold monetary value but rather represent something's tangible, a social contract for services rendered.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#309: May 18th 2019 at 10:04:15 AM

Curiously, According to Professor of Criminal Justice Yuliya Zabyelina, real world black markets often operate on a similar principle of "exchange that are more about the transaction itself than the monetary value being exchanged".

[up][up] I think the idea is that the assassin network we see is a direct continuation of the Hashashin, and this Elder is their counterpart of the "Old Man on the Mountain" from Hashashin lore.

Edited by Gaon on May 18th 2019 at 10:06:33 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#310: May 18th 2019 at 1:06:59 PM

I would disagree with Chapter 3 having the best villains as I found the Adjudicator kind of bland and boring. They were obviously meant to represent the High Table but at the expense of they themselves having any real personality. Zero WAS definitely fun but not as good as Ares to me and definitely not Cassian. Which is not to say I didn't like them, I did. But not as much as the villains from Chapter 2. The (still hypothetical I think?) Chapter 4 looks like having the most personal villain of them all though, so that will be interesting.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Mullon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#311: May 19th 2019 at 10:38:05 AM

So what progressed in John Wick's story with the third one? Because to me it looks like he ended up right where he started minus a finger.

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#312: May 19th 2019 at 10:48:49 AM

It's a progression of misery. He lost his last true friend in the world, his wedding ring (and the finger that held it) and all favors he had to call upon. He did gain a war with literally the entire world (as he double-crossed The Elder) and the ally of the Bowery King and all others.

In the third film he just wanted to survive and escape, he's just running and trying to baragain. In the fourth he isn't going to run, he isn't going to bargain. He's going to war: He's not here to to survive, but to destroy the High Table.

''I put my hand against your plastic heart

No, suicide is not the plan, stand up

Even the stars are trapped inside, oh my

There's nothing left to hide

There's nothing left to die

There's nothing left to die...''

Edited by Gaon on May 19th 2019 at 10:49:15 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#313: May 19th 2019 at 6:28:51 PM

Just came back from seeing the film. I'm really disappointed in Winston.

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#314: May 19th 2019 at 7:42:00 PM

Just saw it as well. Great audience that was really into it too, lots of "ooooooohs" for the more brutal kills.

Absolutely phenomenal action. Leaps and bounds above Chapter 2, for that matter, which I felt kinda fell into a pattern of "John subdues a guy, shoots another guy, shoots the subdued guy, then shoots more guys as they walk into frame." Though this film does noticeably like its Groin Attacks. But hey, if it works, it works.

I enjoyed the great use of Elite Mooks .

And much to my amusement, I didn't expect John to become an Assassin. And fight ninjas.

Edited by Eschaton on May 19th 2019 at 7:46:15 AM

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#315: May 20th 2019 at 9:12:01 AM

[up][up] It might not all be bad, since there's a theory Winston knowingly faked John's death as a show of loyalty to the High Table. The theory going that if he really intended to kill John, he would have gone for the head, and not his bulletproof suit.

Okey Dokey!
Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#316: May 20th 2019 at 11:19:42 AM

Chapter 3 was another amazing entry.

I have to say, these films are absolute proof that you can set a movie primarily at night and have a good, mysterious, gripping atmosphere while the audience can still clearly see what is happening. There shouldn't be any more excuses for why night scenes are darkened to the point that nothing can be made out clearly on the screen. When films like the Wick series can ramp up tension and mystery with stylishly lit night scenes, "we made it dark because it's ~eDgY~ and ~mYsTerIouS~" just looks like such a cop out to hide bad cuts, bad action, and just overall bad direction.

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#317: May 20th 2019 at 11:29:20 AM

IIRC hiding bad shots is actually part of why shaky cam is popular, it's basically the live-action version of Limited Animation.

Leviticus 19:34
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#318: May 20th 2019 at 5:15:38 PM

Granted, John Wick also noticeably peppers its night scenes with gorgeous, almost surrealistic neon and bright-colored lightning as if the assassins always operate in post-modern nightclubs of some sort (some enviroments are borderline giallo). So there's that added concern for the quality of the photography that many action films simply do not have.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#319: May 20th 2019 at 6:03:42 PM

It's a very stylized world, but also utilizes great cinematography so that the black-on-black Real Is Brown is mixed with Chiaroscuro and precise staging (the ax kill specifically was perfectly positioned). Other movies end up just looking muddy and indistinct.

Thinking over the movie, it is interesting how it ends up forgoing the "mandatory trilogy" aspect entirely. It is certainly embracing a Serial Escalation to events, but it is more like an anthology. You could argue the first movie is merely the introduction, and chapter two is when the "real" story begins, with the climax in chapter four.

And in retrospect I think I might like Chapter Two a little more. Parabellum is certainly great when it comes to the carnage but I don't think the climax was nearly as shocking and exciting as Chapter Two. I've seen multiple people point out that nothing really changes for John, and is just promising more violence at the end.

Edited by KJMackley on May 20th 2019 at 6:04:05 AM

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#320: May 20th 2019 at 6:57:30 PM

As far as I'm concerned, none of the sequel's narratives will ever be able to beat the elegant simplicity of the first film. So while I enjoy all the world building, I'm not too invested into the twists and turns of the plot as long as they deliver compelling action.

Though I do have faith that the franchise knows when to call it quits before escalating into ridiculousness, like the Fast and the Furious franchise apparently has, going by the preview trailer.

Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#321: May 21st 2019 at 5:52:50 AM

For me, the fact that nothing improved (since things did change, just not for the better) for John adds to what the overarching narrative is to me. I view John Wick of the story about a man who is trapped, both in a seedy life that he wants to leave behind and in his own emotions.

Plus, after all John has done, this isn't something he can just walk away from with ease. That's what was warned against repeatedly in the first John Wick and everything that has followed has been that playing out. The seeds of fate were sown in John Wick 1 and now, sadly, it likely means John will never find the peace he wants.

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#322: May 21st 2019 at 5:59:27 AM

Per Chad Stahelski:

"John may survive all this shit, but at the end of it, there’s no happy ending. He’s got nowhere to go,” said Stahelski. “Honestly, I challenge you right now, here’s a question to you: How do you fucking want me to end it? Do you think he’s going to ride off into the fucking sunset? He’s killed 300 fucking people and he’s just going to [walk away], everything’s okay? He’s just going to fall in love with a love interest? If you’re this fucking guy, if this guy really exist[ed], how is this guy’s day going to end? He’s fucked for the rest of his life. It’s just a matter of time.”

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#323: May 21st 2019 at 8:04:32 AM

[up][up][up] Regarding the trailer for the next F&F movie, to me it seemed like they were aiming for something like The Expendables (including one of the actors from it, at that), having fun with various action movie tropes.


As for JW3, I actually kinda have some mixed feelings about it. The action scenes were great, no argument there, but it felt to me like they were going ridiculously overboard with the whole "world of assassins" thing, even more so than the conclusion of the second film where it seemed like the entire city was nothing but assassins, when word of Wick's being made Excommunicado was spreading.

I still liked it a lot, mind you, but of the series I still think the first film is the best.

All your safe space are belong to Trump
EruditeEsotericist Since: May, 2015
#324: May 21st 2019 at 3:36:15 PM

I'm starting to wonder if the 4th film is where the story ends or if there's a 5th - a 5 act play, sort of thing.

I'll be quite happy if the 4th film does just go balls out and finish the story in epic, grandstanding style, however.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#325: May 21st 2019 at 3:59:23 PM

My personal favorite of the series is the second. Unlike a lot of people, I much prefer that they take this world to the absurd levels of completely removed to our reality. It's almost like a sort of magic realism where they seem to stick to broadly realistic (in principle) fight scenes while sticking them in this absurd, over-the-top mythological world. It's so much better than the regular attempt at flaccid realism (while being considerably more ridiculous with its fight scenes) some movies have. Plus, the assassin world of JW is a fascinating and original place in both aesthetic and lore.

I love the first one to bits, but out of the three, it's the one closest to a "traditional revenge flick", while the other 2 throw us at the madness of this samurai-esque world of ancient oaths. I much prefer that.

In a related note, yeah, I do hope the fourth film wraps this up. The best part, the story of John Wick, seems to be reaching a breaking point and things are gearing up for a gran finale.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

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