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Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#46576: Sep 15th 2020 at 1:54:49 PM

Would Izuku count as a Chosen One? While All Might did choose him as a successor it was more like someone picking up a protégée, chosen one stories usually involve somekind of preordained prophecy.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#46577: Sep 15th 2020 at 2:07:25 PM

He's not, but that's part of what I was talking about having your cake and eating it too. A lot of people talk as if they hate tropes like that, but at the same time want protagonists basically be that.

He wasn't picked by some divine wisdom, and the story doesn't try to pretend he's the only person worthy of inheriting OFA, therefore, certain people feel unsatisfied on both ends.

And since Asta was brought up, I've never really agreed with the complaints about him being "undeserving" or his powers being "cheap" or anything either. There are other reasons I can see not liking the character, but I've never been convinced by those.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#46578: Sep 15th 2020 at 2:12:35 PM

Umm....Mint Ice Cream head did like a summer's worth of physical training on the beach.

I mean the man PUNCHED A 30 FOOT ROBOT TO SAVE A GIRL WHO HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW AND BROKE HIS ARM, and people consider that inactive?

I think the point being made was that Izuku wasn't taking steps to become a hero until after he met All Might. At most he had his hero notes which, while comprehensive, would only go so far.

If the MHA verse didn't have quirks and everyone was just trying to get into a corp of badass normals, Izuku would still be at a disadvantage because he didn't even prepare for that much, so far as we can see.

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#46579: Sep 15th 2020 at 2:15:04 PM

As it was, Deku could at best either become a cop or a firefighter or join the Support Course and see if his observational skills end up being useful for classmates.

Deku had his dream of being a Pro Hero kind of crushed early on, so he just was a directionless otaku at that point. Even if he had a good heart, there was a lot missing.

Edited by Blueace on Sep 15th 2020 at 6:16:29 AM

Wake me up at your own risk.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#46580: Sep 15th 2020 at 2:16:03 PM

Ya know, what I'm getting from this is that people just don't know what the fuck they actually want in their stories.

They want a protagonist who is both not special, but actually very special at the same time. This is why I never take these arguments seriously, because people unilaterally have no clue why they like the things they like and give generalized and shallow reasons like this. It makes arguing a chore.

I honestly firmly believe people have no idea why they like the things they like, and couldn't explain it to save their lives. But because people they feel passionate about it, they'll argue to the moon about it.

It's fandumb in the purest form.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#46581: Sep 15th 2020 at 2:20:20 PM

[up][up] Yeah, not a single person on his life told him he could be a hero until All Might... 's second conversation with him.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#46582: Sep 15th 2020 at 2:45:41 PM

Ya know the hilarious thing about Asta & to be clear these are not serious critiques I have of him, is that arguably fits the complaints that is typically thrown at Deku more.

Like for one he doesn't necessarily get his anti-magic through like a test of character, but because his rare medical condition literally makes him the only viable host out of the entire planet. Its pretty much made clear that absolutely no one else can use the anti-magic swords. He's also an instant expert at using the newly obtained weapons & while it is later revealed that he did get some formal sword-training, that was in light novel released years later.

And power-wise his development is mostly either plot trinkets or emotional power-ups. Like when he got his second sword, he was in a dungeon fighting the baddie and after getting smashed into a wall he randomly discovers another rusted anti-magic sword. Or when he got his super-mode, again pushed back against the wall by the seemingly unstoppable baddie, he goes "I'll never give up", & after a short convo with the demon inside BOOM brand-spankin new super-mode.

And yet he never really gets lodged with the same complaints.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 15th 2020 at 2:46:08 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#46583: Sep 15th 2020 at 2:48:34 PM

Think it's because people hold the two series to different standards.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#46584: Sep 15th 2020 at 2:50:52 PM

Oh most definitely they do.

Its just ya know kinda funny. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#46585: Sep 15th 2020 at 2:51:16 PM

Yeah, the story has acknowledged that Izuku had actually given up deep down before he met All Might - he wasn't trying out for U.A. because he thought he could actually get in, he just didn't want to admit it to himself that it was impossible.

If All Might hadn't come up to him after the sludge villain fight, it really seems like he was ready to try and move on and thinking about doing something else.

I can actually understand not liking that - it can be really endearing to see people struggle on and persist well past the point where everyone else has given up, but I can't say I don't like how it was actually handled. As soon as he's given some actual hope Izuku starts trying like hell, and he's never stopped, but he needed that hope first. I find that much more relatable than someone who just persists endlessly, undaunted by doubt or obvious facts standing in their way.

Plus, it ties neatly into how before meeting Izuku All Might was growing more cynical - by meeting one another, they basically saved each other.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 15th 2020 at 5:01:54 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#46586: Sep 15th 2020 at 3:00:31 PM

I like that.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#46587: Sep 15th 2020 at 3:01:52 PM

Like Rebel said, people have different expectations for both series.

Asta and Black Clover as a whole kind of all into the typical Shonen that we all grew up with. It's closer to Naruto or Bleach than anything else, which makes very familiar to us and as such, we're comfortable with tropes it employs.

Izuku and My Hero Academia are an entirely different beast and straight up explores all of those Shonen tropes that the others never really did. It explores the concept of being a hero in a setting such as this, raises some pretty valid questions as a whole. People hate having to address things they might've taken for granted.

Black Clover is like that old store you shopped at as a kid; it's a comfortable feeling that you're used to, but doesn't really set itself apart from the old store. My Hero Academia is a new store entirely that kind of twists around all of those things you loved about your favorite story. It doesn't straight up change, but it forces you to look at them in a different light, which may or may not make you uncomfortable.

Black Clover is comfort good basically. And that's not a knock against it, because there's nothing wrong with comfort food.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Sep 15th 2020 at 6:03:11 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#46588: Sep 15th 2020 at 5:04:50 PM

Every few years or so, media discourse more often than not picks tropes that it then deems good or bad devoid of any context. Whether it is a pushback towards older works, shifts in public consciousness, or just an arbitrary decision, quality of a work can get incredibly simplified under the veener of critical thought or discussion.

Many see things like chosen one narratives as being inherently tainted while disregarding how it actually plays out or played out since people often misremember how a story was actually written and instead project what they do or don't like onto it.

Don't catch you slippin' now.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#46589: Sep 15th 2020 at 5:09:53 PM

Thats been happening to the Star Wars franchise in regards to family lines and especially the chosen one narratives.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#46590: Sep 15th 2020 at 5:25:37 PM

As well as how good the Jedi are or are not.

Though that might be more Ron the Death Eater and Evil Is Cool.

One Strip! One Strip!
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#46591: Sep 15th 2020 at 5:33:42 PM

Not to bring Star Wars discourse into this, but it's not really Ron the Death Eater for the Jedi, more the fact that when looked through a more critical lens and not thinking of the "Jedi vs. Sith" as the same "Good vs. Evil" anymore combined with the advent of Star Wars: The Clone Wars that lets people see the Jedi and think they're not the definitive good guys anymore. I mean, it can be kind of hard to put a positive spin on how the Jedi treated Ahsoka when they thought she was the bomber of the Jedi Temple, their liberal use of Brainwashing for the Greater Good, and the fact they pretty much take toddlers that are force sensitive and indoctrinate them into following their doctrine since they're so young and malleable, hence why they couldn't do it on Anakin when he was only 9 due to being "too old".

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#46592: Sep 15th 2020 at 5:42:49 PM

Given the boatload of issues he never got over and caused him to fall to the Dark Side, they kind of had a point. But the Jedi were supposed to be in the serious need of an overhaul and the war took its toll on them, even if they still wanted to help.

Wake me up at your own risk.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#46593: Sep 15th 2020 at 5:43:51 PM

Which does serve to showcase how flawed the whole deconstructing the Jedi becomes by the ST. Yes the Jedi were a flawed organization but their dead by that point. By the time the ST started the Jedi Order has been extinct for over 50 years with little to no remnant of the organization left bar some lessons to Luke, who's own character arc is rising above the preconceived notions of his 2 old masters & starting his own thing.

Yet the ST still felt the need to once again deconstruct a long dead organization simply because the popular consensus likes to debate & deconstruct the Jedi Order.

People really can't let anything ago.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 15th 2020 at 5:44:32 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#46594: Sep 15th 2020 at 5:59:52 PM

[up][up]They didn't exactly help him with those issues, since in their eyes its wrong for a kid to miss his mom, wrong to feel fear, wrong to feel anything in general, to the point they pretty much neuter their emotions, only to end up succumbing to them and become massive hypocrites in the process.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#46595: Sep 15th 2020 at 6:05:42 PM

Well yeah. You can only spend so long tearing something down before people get tired of even that, regardless of whether you're making good points.

Cause at some point, someone has to ask ok, then what should they do!? How do we fix this!?

Though that's not really the topic (and I kinda regret continuing it): it's about how people decide something is bad due to the trope being overdone (or some other factors) but refuse to actually learn about the work to see if those points are valid.

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#46596: Sep 15th 2020 at 6:32:25 PM

Protestant reformation but in space

Someone needed to nail some theses to the door of the Jedi temple

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#46598: Sep 15th 2020 at 10:38:29 PM

This video has nothing to do with what's being discussed, but is very appropriate for this thread.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#46600: Sep 15th 2020 at 11:10:56 PM

It's sad when, outside of Ishigami, Endeavor is the best Dad in that meeting. Seriously:

  • Ging pretty much actively avoids Gon, despite Gon having spent years searching for him.
  • Dragon has only seen Luffy once in the last decade, and Luffy barely knows him.
  • Goku was absent most of Gohan's adolescent life, and isn't mentally capable of raising a kid, since even when around for Goten, he's mainly just playing with him rather than actually raising him, with that role falling on Chichi.
Endeavor was a shit father for a long time, but he's actually trying to be a good father after realizing how shit he was, he is trying to be there for Shoto, trying to atone for his sins, and doesn't let his occupation get in the way of that. He's basically the Vegeta of MHA in terms of being a person and father.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Sep 15th 2020 at 2:12:58 PM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.

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