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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#27351: Jan 31st 2019 at 10:48:37 AM

Honestly people who argue for Batman Deku are so uncreative.

Like the only guy without powers becoming a badass normal is so obvious anyone can see it coming.

But the powerless guy earning a superpower by joining an epic legacy that spans back decades is a lot more creative & fun.

They call it cliche or generic but they don’t realize they are the pot calling the kettle black.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 31st 2019 at 10:49:12 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#27352: Jan 31st 2019 at 10:52:40 AM

And Deku can't be Batman since he doesn't have Batman's true superpower: tons of money and a lot of free time.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#27353: Jan 31st 2019 at 11:22:43 AM

If he failed his entrance exam he’d have had oodles of time

To spend crying

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27354: Jan 31st 2019 at 11:23:45 AM

I've often seen people take those panels of Izuku asking "Can even someone Quirkless become like you!?" to All Might and All Might going "You can become a hero!" and comparing them to the going ons of the current manga as if the two contradict each other.

But, like, the answer to that first question was flat out No, and the second one exists in the context of "You, specifically can become a hero because I'm offering you an opportunity to do so."

The series has messages of "don't let opportunities go to waste" and "work hard to realize your potential" but "anyone can become the best if they just try hard enough, no matter the circumstances" has never been the message and the story hasn't pretended that it is.

If you don't like that, fair enough, but acting as if the series hasn't been consistent with itself is being dishonest.

Edited by LSBK on Jan 31st 2019 at 1:43:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#27355: Jan 31st 2019 at 12:13:58 PM

Oh this is annoying, I'm still on this argument & their still stuck on "If he really believed in his dream, he would still train no matter what".

I swear Badass Normal fanboys are so annoying. Like Rorschach or Kick-Ass can do anything in this world.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27356: Jan 31st 2019 at 12:38:35 PM

At some point you just need to know when to stop engaging. We've already established this person isn't actually interested in discussing things in good-faith.

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#27357: Jan 31st 2019 at 12:51:21 PM

Honestly, lately most of the MHA discussions I've engaged in have been in bad faith (from the other part). It's starting to hinder my enjoyment of the series, so I've pretty much cut it out.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#27358: Jan 31st 2019 at 1:12:02 PM

There's a reason I basically don't post many places other than here. tongue

Also, if by some fluke I ended up writing a shonen series I'd basically make it a subversion of the standard "you can do anything if you want it hard enough" by making the protagonist somebody who's an incredibly motivated hard worker... who just doesn't have the ability to carry his talent through to the highest level. Seriously, hard work can make you better at something, but "you can achieve anything if you try hard enough" is bunk. Obviously, I don't want to discourage people from putting effort into things, and you can absolutely improve yourself by honing your skills, but there's a limit on how far you can get, especially because there's nothing stopping other people with a more natural affinity from working as hard as you.

If the premise would've been something like Deku wanting to be a hero despite having no quirk, I'd honestly rather have the series ending being about the fact that being a professional superhero without a power to back you up is a really unrealistic goal and that he could put his actual talents to better use by pursuing another vocation.

Edited by JapaneseTeeth on Jan 31st 2019 at 3:15:28 AM

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27359: Jan 31st 2019 at 1:30:44 PM

I will say that people say the premise is very wish-fullfillmenty: a boy without superpowers born into a world in which almost everyone has them is given a power by his idol and greatest hero in the world? Yeah, that is wish-fulfillment, they aren't wrong about that. But, "A boy without superpowers uses nothing but his wits and smarts to beat out all the people with powers to become the greatest hero in the world" is also serious wish-fulfillment.

A little escapism is perfectly fine, but if you're looking at something like this to teach an actual lesson applicable to real life, I think this story generally works better than the alternative. Especially because with the alternative people seem to tactically ignore:

but there's a limit on how far you can get, especially because there's nothing stopping other people with a more natural affinity from working as hard as you.

A lot of people obsessed with BadAssNormals just either ignore that gifted people can work hard as well and thus naturally get better results and/or say it doesn't "really count" as hard work if you have talent. Which is just a toxic mindset to have.

Edited by LSBK on Jan 31st 2019 at 3:53:05 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#27360: Jan 31st 2019 at 1:31:06 PM

[up][up][up][up] Well I have no intent to continue any further, especially when they actually went "BC > MHA" making me throw my hands up in disbelief over how immature people can be.

[up][up][up] Sadly we've reached the point were people are gonna hate, hate, hate.

Ah the consequences of popularity, its essentially a huge target on your back.

[up] There's a reason why unless you are a super-genius or trained in an elite martial arts dojo, most powerless heroes are street level. They can only fight in their own weight-class.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 31st 2019 at 1:32:46 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#27361: Jan 31st 2019 at 1:34:46 PM

Learning that hard work can’t take you as far as you want to go in a world of broken inherent superpowers is like the Rock Lee story, unless something happened after I stopped paying attention to make Rock Lee stop being such a hilarious subversion if the hard work themes

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27362: Jan 31st 2019 at 1:35:52 PM

[up][up]The funny thing with Black Clover is the comparison is entirely unneeded. Both Izuku and Asta work really hard, and both of them recieved a once in a lifetime opportunity/power.

Neither of those facts conflicts with the other. Debating whether either Izuku or Asta "deserve" anything is entirely pointless and ignores what the two of them have actually done. They're basically two sides of the same message.

Edited by LSBK on Jan 31st 2019 at 3:37:17 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#27363: Jan 31st 2019 at 1:41:52 PM

[up] Though admitably Asta is just a tad bit luckier because him getting his power is entirely dependent on being born with the right disability that enables him to use it.tongue

Had he been born able to use even the barest of magic the grimoire would have never went to him.

But hey he works out so its all right. [lol]

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 31st 2019 at 1:42:20 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#27364: Jan 31st 2019 at 1:42:03 PM

Nardo still pushed the hard work theme, and it was one of my gripes with the Bolt movies handling of it. Of course the anime and manga do a better job of it.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#27365: Jan 31st 2019 at 1:57:39 PM

I don't think there's a single shonen protagonist that got to be the best through nothing but hard work and no handouts or genetic lottery, honestly.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#27366: Jan 31st 2019 at 1:59:32 PM

Astas genetics are why he can wield the swords afterall, but their originally wielder did have magic.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#27367: Jan 31st 2019 at 2:01:21 PM

Yowamushi Pedal might count? I dunno, I stopped reading part of the way through, so I dunno if the MC ended up getting some sort of handout at some point, but it seems like it's mostly just hard work. Sports manga in general is where you're more likely to find the "hard work and nothing else actually works" narrative played straight.

JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#27368: Jan 31st 2019 at 2:35:34 PM

[up][up]The only thing I can really think of is Kenichi: The Mightiest Disciple, where it's repeatedly stated that he has no natural talent for martial arts. Of course on the flipside he also basically lucks into getting trained by six of the best martial artists on earth, and they also admit that he is pretty talented at managing to take enormous amounts of punishment (although that might be a case of Damned by Faint Praise), so even then it isn't just a case of him working for it.

That said, while there are very few manga that are blatantly playing it straight, people overwhelmingly tend to focus on the "hard work" part of the equation and ignore all other factors. Sort of like people who consider Batman a "normal guy", ignoring the fact that part of why he's so effective is that he's filthy rich and thus has access to technology and training facilities that pretty much nobody else could match.

Edited by JapaneseTeeth on Jan 31st 2019 at 4:39:20 AM

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danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#27369: Jan 31st 2019 at 2:37:54 PM

[up]Would that be a case of excessive handouts, then? Like, having a mentor or teacher in and of itself doesn't negate the hard work aspect, but when you have half a dozen of the best of the best, then you start wondering if just about anybody could have gotten to that level in the same situation.

JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#27370: Jan 31st 2019 at 2:40:16 PM

Yeah, that would definitely count. It was just the only example I could think of where the protagonist didn't have some sort of "personal" benefit like getting a power boost or inheriting their dead master's spiritual power or something like that.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27371: Jan 31st 2019 at 2:40:37 PM

The whole idea of pitting hard work against natural talent is inherently flawed because it ignores that people with talent still have to work to cultivate it. Like, it's bad writing when a work says you only need hard work to succeed, only to turn around and display otherwise later on, but that's a problem with saying only one or the other matter to begin with. The actual moral would be about understanding that talent and dedication are needed to be successful, and learning to live with that and your limitations should you fail to live up to the standard you wanted.

Edited by VeryMelon on Jan 31st 2019 at 5:41:46 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#27372: Jan 31st 2019 at 2:41:41 PM

Another issue with those series is they have the protagonist start fighting the big guy’s right after he begins training.

Because barely any series actually bothers with time-skips anymore they justify how a character suddenly goes from amateur to master in less than a year by going “Oh he learns fast”.

[up] Man the concepts of talent & hard work have been rendered toxic.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 31st 2019 at 2:42:49 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#27373: Jan 31st 2019 at 4:09:00 PM

If you coast by on talent alone at some point you'll be presented with an obstacle you can't overcome and then you are fucking screwed because you've never been really challenged before and thus have never learned how to work to overcome such barriers.

We call kids who can write symphonies or whatever by the age of 9 'gifted', but they have absolutely done nothing else in their life but study music to cultivate that talent.

ED: We can use Bakugou as an example here. Yes, he has natural abilities, but he also works really, really hard to improve himself.

Edited by asterism on Jan 31st 2019 at 12:11:52 PM

Bewitching Eyes
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#27374: Jan 31st 2019 at 4:12:33 PM

I want a shonen rival character to run into that gifted kid never learned to study thing and then just never overcomes it

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#27375: Jan 31st 2019 at 4:12:45 PM

Case in point, me in college. School was easy as hell up to that point and I barely studied for anything. College wiped me until I wised up and started studying seriously.


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