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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#25026: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:19:15 PM

She was able to outwit Kendo & gave Tokoyami the tools for victory.

It’s just no one could expect Mushroom’s powers to be as broken as it is.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#25027: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:19:17 PM

Mostly because I think it's trying to sell Class B as on Class A's level but still try to say Class A is good.

And what's the problem with that? Both of those things can be true.

As for Momo's spiritual victory, I wasn't buying it at first either, but looking back on it, it made sense - Kendo was legitimately Out Gambitted by Momo's decision to sacrifice herself to support the rest of the team. Again, if it wasn't for Komori's trump card - which they can't always count on - they probably would have lost.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Nov 2nd 2018 at 10:20:12 AM

Oh God! Natural light!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#25028: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:20:56 PM

[up][up] She didn't outwit her at all. Her plan accomplished nothing.

Momo's plan to sacrifice herself didn't work. It didn't stop Kendo, it didn't stop Mushroom girl.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#25029: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:21:10 PM

She failed in every conceivable way. Trying to make her look good for tying up Kendo was a complete joke, because it didn't even impede Kendo's ability to save Manga. Tokoyami lost the same as we would regardless of if they had her care package or not.

How is Tokoyami losing to something none of them could have predicted a failure on Momo's part? Especially when he only found them and almost got them because of her goggles. And the anti-fungicide helped Toru sneak up on and almost take down Manga.

I do believe that Momo should have an unambiguous win, but that's not what you're saying here, and it comes off as kind of ridiculous to me (yes, even though I don't buy Kendo's "I don't feel like I won" either).

Edited by LSBK on Nov 2nd 2018 at 9:22:12 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#25030: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:22:40 PM

Tokoyami was a literal inch-close to victory & was only stopped because he was practically suffocated by the sudden appearance of shrooms in his throat.

That’s a level of brutality I think no one thought was possible.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:23:02 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#25031: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:25:57 PM

I actually do think that Tokoyami could have won against Kendo - even though she was able to move all that way to support Manga, I doubt she would have had the mobility to fight against Tokoyami. Manga's a bit iffier, but if Tokoyami rushed him before he could do anything, I don't think he'd stand much of a chance. Plus, if he managed to free Hagakure at the same time, that's another advantage they don't have.

Oh God! Natural light!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#25032: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:26:45 PM

Yeah. I gotta agree with the idea that Momo did pretty well.

She failed, but not due to any flaws on her part. If anything Kendo's decision to focus on Momo almost scuttled them.

If Tokoyami hadn't been throat mushroomed, he'd have taken out his opponents, then assisted Invisible Girl with her opponent, leaving Kendo on her own (as in, by the time she dragged Momo and herself to the battle, she'd have been too late to do anything).

Saying she completely and utterly failed in every way is massively underselling her. She failed, but it's not as though she was utterly useless and unable to do anything.

One Strip! One Strip!
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#25033: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:27:18 PM

Winning in spirit means nothing because if this was a real battle with villains, there would be no "in spirit" to victory because the unpreictable nature of battle means they'd lose and the villains win because villains can know their quirks without their own being known nor their full capabilities. Since both sides are supposed to view the other as villains during this.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#25034: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:27:49 PM

And just generally I feel like it's illogical to base how well/poorly individual characters do in situations like this on the final outcome.

Kirishima and Koda barely did anything in Round 1 but their team won, so does that mean they performed better than Shishida?

[up]Is anyone arguing that "winning in spirit" really matters though? I know the series tried that, but I haven't seen anyone actually agree with it. It's just one of those things mangas say.

Edited by LSBK on Nov 2nd 2018 at 9:29:56 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#25035: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:28:45 PM

[up][up]Ok, if you look at it that way, then yeah I suppose saying she totally failed is fair.

I mean, it's not like things can't go wrong even when you theoretically do everything right.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Nov 2nd 2018 at 8:29:20 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#25036: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:31:34 PM

And what's the problem with that? Both of those things can be true.

Look, I don't wanna sound Darwinian or anything, but in actual competition, nobody cares how good your efforts were but the results that come from them. And in competition, there is only a winner and a loser.

So trying to portray both sides as "They're both winners" creates needless ambiguity; Class B's win doesn't look as impressive cuz "they didn't win properly" and undercuts the whole message of them being on par with Class A cuz apparently they win even when they lose :V

It's not like I think Class A should be portrayed as inferior, just that Class B got the jump on them and they unambiguously lost the match. Yes, people lose. It sucks, but it happens to everyone and there's nothing wrong with that.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#25037: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:32:17 PM

Itls a distinction needed to really know who fully understands that in a real scenario it wouldn't matter, because a villain wouldn't feel like they lost when they and their allies succeeded. It separates those taking seriously, those just treating it as a match, and Kaminari being an idiot.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#25038: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:33:14 PM

I understand the issue; when stuff like that happens in sports manga it can be annoying but you get the point. But since they're training for what very well can be life-or-death situations, trying something like that doesn't actually apply.

Edited by LSBK on Nov 2nd 2018 at 9:33:49 AM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#25039: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:34:30 PM

I agree that if the stakes were higher, it wouldn't have mattered, which is why I'm somewhat bummed that we skipped the evaluation of the second round. Maybe that's only something Horikoshi will only do for the first round, but if he does it again for this round, then I hope he'll go back and do some for Round 2.

If I were to offer criticism of Momo's plan, it's that while she did well adapting on the fly, had they let the enemy come to them or scouted more stealthily (rather than sending out Dark Shadow), they might have stood a better chance. Their plans mostly fell apart because they didn't know their enemies' capabilities, so in the future, she should take into account the need for proper intel.

[up][up][up] I disagree quite substantially, actually. This is more than a competition (in fact, I'd say it's only that in that they're competing against each other - they're not trying to win a prize or anything, at least as far as we know) - this is a test of their abilities. And yes, the team that wins nominally put on a better performance, but as we've seen, there are cases where the winning team can make serious missteps and the losing team can pull of some genuinely clever strategies. Criticism and praise should be distributed by those merits, not simply by which team won and which team lost (although obviously, how the winners and losers of each round came about will no doubt factor heavily into the aforementioned praise and criticism.

Personally, I think that even a well-fought defeat can be beneficial.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Nov 2nd 2018 at 10:41:42 AM

Oh God! Natural light!
IniuriaTalis Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Love, football, the arts, the occasional pint
#25040: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:35:52 PM

The weird part is that this was actually addressed in the first round, where Tsuyu considered her win a loss because she knows that in a real fight, Kirishima and Koda would be dead. Momo wouldn't be a victor in any practical circumstance.

Does anyone actually read these?
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#25041: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:36:20 PM

Though when you look at it from Kendo's point of view, I can see how she doesn't really feel like she won.

In the end, it was Mushroom girl's gambit of putting them in Tokoyami's throat that won it for them.

That took him out, leaving no one to back up Hagakure, and letting Kendo catch (which took a while due to Momo tying them up).

Considering she was trying to prove herself better than Momo on some level, her feeling she failed in that department even though her team won is fair. In fact, you could say her team won almost in spite of her in the end.

It's fair for her to feel like she still failed, because if not for a factor that had nothing to do with her, she'd have been too late to finish the match and get them the victory.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#25042: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:36:48 PM

Kind of makes me wish we had seen all of Round 2's reflections.

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#25043: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:37:20 PM

I still think she did well, but Kendo shouldnt take this as a defeat when her and her teammates still had the means to victory unknown to Class A. Whose own miscalculations cost the battle.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#25044: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:42:38 PM

I suppose it matters less for me because I'm not really adverse to the idea "You can do everything right, and still lose", I actually think it's important to show that from time to time. And while Tokoyami and Toru made clear mistakes, I don't really think Momo did.

Plus, Kendo's musings are just her own personal feelings because her of thing with Momo. They're not indicative of how the rest of the team feel, or even her objective assessment of the outcome.

Edited by LSBK on Nov 2nd 2018 at 9:44:32 AM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#25045: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:43:41 PM

I do think that Kendo's framing it in terms of her personal rivalry with Momo, yeah.

Oh God! Natural light!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#25046: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:44:14 PM

@LSBK I'm not saying that Momo should have known about the throat mushrooms. It's just not an excuse

Her plan failed because she built it off incomplete information. That is fine, but it completely shits on the idea that she out-gambitted Kendo because her gambit was built off faulty assumptions, it is as simple as that. She didn't know the extent of mushroom girl's powers and as such her plan failed.

Information is critical. Lack of information is not a virtue. I'm not specifically faulting her for it, just saying that it's still a flawed plan that failed and saying she would have won if not for X is meaningless. Mushroom girl and Kendo still knew about that power, so it's not like they didn't account for it.

Momo sacrificing herself clearly didn't help either.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#25047: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:49:07 PM

I agree with your third paragraph, but still think your second one is off. But, I don't really want to turn this into a bigger thing.

Edited by LSBK on Nov 2nd 2018 at 9:49:25 AM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#25048: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:49:13 PM

[up][up] It didn't help in the end, no, but it was the best choice to make in the situation - she certain didn't think she could win against Kendo, and even if she did manage to pull off a win, for all she knew, she would have come back to find that everyone else on her team had lost (and they were about to). The sacrificial play was the best option.

And I do agree that lack of information was their undoing, but I honestly don't think they could have found out about the throat mushroom thing, so I won't hold it against her And I'm not sure if Kendo knew about it either? I feel like that was something that Komori just decided to do in the moment, just in case. If that's the case, then Momo did out-gambit Kendo, because Kendo wasn't counting on it.

Honestly, it getting in Tokoyami's throat seems to have partially been luck, so I don't think it's something that they could have counted on in every fight.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Nov 2nd 2018 at 10:51:43 AM

Oh God! Natural light!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#25049: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:51:55 PM

I mean, for me I know that they were going to lose from the beginning, it was just a matter of making it look good. I think it succeeded well enough at that with Tokoyami and Momo, not so much with the other two, but I don't think anyone went in expecting much from them anyway.

Edited by LSBK on Nov 2nd 2018 at 9:53:16 AM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#25050: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:53:05 PM

For me, Aoyama was the only disappointing performance - Hagakure was actually contributing something, even if she didn't succeed.

Speaking of which, her lesson - the value of silence.

Oh God! Natural light!

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