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DAN004 Chair Man from The 0th Dimension Since: Aug, 2010
Chair Man
#226: Dec 7th 2014 at 1:52:56 AM

[up] that sure makes it clearer.

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Darksilverhawk Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#227: Dec 7th 2014 at 8:45:08 AM

I think there would be some overlap between the two in Brute Weapon example, so I don't think they're all that functionally different. "Big guy hits people with big weapon" is the heart of it; whether it's being held, thrown, or shot is negligible. Same for Small Girl Big Weapon.

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shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#228: Dec 7th 2014 at 9:05:51 AM

It's also for Brute Weapon an appearance of the weapon thing. Brute Weapons tend to be darker in colour, show wear and tear, look both crude and sturdy. Their decoration tends to lend itself more to skulls, spikes, military insignia, and symbols of strength. A Brute Weapon looks brutish even before the brute picks it up.

By contrast, an Elegant Weapon tends to be very shiny, light in colour, and feature either modern simplicity, or extravagant embellishments that tend to flow. An Elegant Weapon tends towards gems, wings, flowers, and scrollwork for its decorations. They look light and graceful no matter their actual size.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
SolipSchism Since: Jun, 2014
#229: Dec 8th 2014 at 11:07:39 AM

I think the Heavy from Team Fortress 2 feels very much like The Brute, despite his iconic weapon being his (ranged) BFG Sasha. I don't really see much need to have a Ranged Brute Weapon; how many examples of a ranged brute would there really be? Enough to justify a separate page? And are they really that different? Just because I can hit you from 300 meters away instead of only in close combat doesn't really make that much of a difference. The Heavy's characterization isn't really any different from a similar character wielding an axe.

I also feel like most of the "ranged brutes" would just backslide into "people using really big weapons" and fail to focus on the characterization.

EDIT: It looks like I'm arguing against having anything for ranged brute weapons; I'm not. I'm arguing that I feel like Ranged Brute Weapon should just be an included part of Brute Weapon (EDIT again: Or rather, Big Slow Heavy Weapon, which is an even more spot-on match for Sasha)—when it applies, which I suspect will be rarer than you might think, for reasons stated earlier; namely, that many big ranged weapons don't actually require much strength to use.

edited 8th Dec '14 11:11:35 AM by SolipSchism

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#230: Dec 8th 2014 at 11:42:20 AM

Big Slow Heavy Weapon doesn't work because many times they are not slow at all, they usually will have some kind of weakness like low accuracy, low magic stats, use more resources to swing, actually swing slow, or any kind of combo of those or none of the above.

Also I don't see Brutes weapon having to always be huge like in BFS territory there are more average sized more savage looking types too.

edited 8th Dec '14 12:13:04 PM by Memers

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#231: Dec 8th 2014 at 12:04:17 PM

I can think of one example where they're not large. In Gladius, the berserkers have dual axes. Regular sized one-hand axes. They're also a fast light class that does a lot of damage. Although they do become a heavy class when they go berserk, they don't get slower. And I'd say they still qualify, because the axes contribute do their savage look.

edited 8th Dec '14 2:14:38 PM by AnotherDuck

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Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#232: Dec 8th 2014 at 12:16:43 PM

[up] Yeah, another example would be Warcraft Orcs [1] they arnt always huge but the Axes really help their look.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#233: Dec 8th 2014 at 12:21:02 PM

Those are still larger than RL two-handed axes. Mostly thicker.

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shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#234: Dec 8th 2014 at 1:56:29 PM

A decent chunk of Big Slow Heavy Weapons are also Brute Weapons, but not all of them are. Wolverine Claws for example often fall into the Brute Weapon category, but they tend to be fast, light, and still savage.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
SolipSchism Since: Jun, 2014
#236: Dec 8th 2014 at 2:06:11 PM

[up]I'm noticing a disquieting and Straw Man-esque tendency in this thread for folks to make a point and use X Trope Title as an off-the-cuff stand-in for whatever trope would actually be used, and then for others to jump in with "That's a bad trope name because not all Xs are Ys." I don't honestly believe any of the red links on the last two pages were actual, serious attempts to propose a trope name. We're trying to nail down what tropes are actually here, not polish them and send them out the door. Come on people, we have to walk before we can run.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#237: Dec 8th 2014 at 2:07:28 PM

Correct. All trope names I'm using are stand in names, and I'm being consistent with them. I'm just using them because we need to call them something or talking about them is hard.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
SolipSchism Since: Jun, 2014
#238: Dec 8th 2014 at 2:08:40 PM

[up]I should have mentioned that—we're only using these Red Links for the time being because we have to call them something.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#239: Dec 8th 2014 at 2:23:44 PM

I've not thought much about what names should be used for the actual tropes, but even using placeholder names like Brute Weapon and Big Slow Heavy Weapon show what the tropes are about, and my point in the last two posts was exactly that those aren't the same trope, since there seemed to be confusion about that. The first says that the character prefers using brute force over finesse (or effectivity over efficiency), and the second says the character is strong and not very fast. Those are distinct differences.

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Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#240: Dec 8th 2014 at 2:41:37 PM

Well I was just getting confused on what is what because we seemed to be combining things.

Anyway where does the Native American stereotype fit into all of this? That is a serious thing and why I was saying 'Naturey Axes: axes tend to be the default weapon for those connected to nature and earth such as Shamans and Native Americans.'

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#241: Dec 8th 2014 at 2:48:40 PM

Maybe into a Natury Weapon category? I also see bows, flint knives, and spears in that category. There are definitely weapons that broadcast this person here, he hangs out in nature. Native Americans tend to get shoehorned into that stereotype.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#242: Dec 8th 2014 at 2:49:07 PM

I wonder if that doesn't fit under some kind of Cultural Weapon. Like axes for dwarves, bows for elves, and clubs for cavemen.

edited 8th Dec '14 2:49:37 PM by AnotherDuck

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Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#243: Dec 8th 2014 at 3:40:13 PM

[up] That could definitely be a thing even if it is just limited to in-universe, like the World Of Warcraft races having racial traits for using specific types weapons.

edited 8th Dec '14 3:43:24 PM by Memers

troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#244: Dec 8th 2014 at 3:45:33 PM

It's possible the correct move is to have a medieval equivalent to Standard FPS Guns.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#245: Dec 8th 2014 at 3:45:49 PM

Well spotted, Duck. Cultural Weapon is indeed a trope. I can think of several examples described both in narrative and as game mechanics.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#247: Dec 8th 2014 at 3:52:07 PM

Yes. Right off the top of my head I'm thinking Klingon bat'leths from Star Trek. The Vahanti Wave Blades from Avernum. The dwarves axes in Discworld. It's a trope. I have examples.

Edit: Oh, and Connor from Assassins Creed III has a tomahawk to represent his native american ness.

edited 8th Dec '14 3:55:55 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
SolipSchism Since: Jun, 2014
#248: Dec 8th 2014 at 3:54:00 PM

Oh, that time I actually was suggesting a trope name. "Yuss" meant "yes". But yeah, there are tons of examples.

edited 8th Dec '14 3:54:23 PM by SolipSchism

DAN004 Chair Man from The 0th Dimension Since: Aug, 2010
Chair Man
#249: Dec 8th 2014 at 3:58:33 PM

[up][up] Wouldn't that be National Weapon?

edited 8th Dec '14 3:58:54 PM by DAN004

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shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#250: Dec 8th 2014 at 4:02:09 PM

[up] Yes, but that's written poorly and not crosswicked well. It needs help, but the fact that we have it is a good start.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

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