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Nithael Since: Jan, 2001
#4051: Feb 11th 2019 at 10:03:06 AM

Now to be fair, despite the fact that the far-right has been part of the Gilets jaunes for a while and consider themselves close to the movement (singing "Gilets jaunes with us" alongside "Paris belongs to the Gauls") you can also find instances where they don't get along so it's not like 100% of the gilets jaunes are racist, but still.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#4052: Feb 11th 2019 at 10:12:04 AM

It's not just the far right, it is also the far left. Hence the need for every political movement to march for something specific. Otherwise you attract questionable elements.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#4053: Feb 11th 2019 at 10:16:31 AM

[up][up]That's exactly my point.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 11th 2019 at 1:16:43 PM

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#4054: Feb 11th 2019 at 10:28:32 AM

I don't think that anyone claimed that they are. But that doesn't change the fact that their movement has been used by such groups as a vehicle, and the danger which lies in it.

Lentilles Since: Jan, 2017
#4055: Feb 12th 2019 at 2:47:58 AM

The problem is that there is no magical way to get rid of the racists, there is always going to be some unsavoury fringe in every group of people of a certain size. A new movement will not change that. The end of the movement will not change that. So what are the options?

Also, I expected a lot worse regarding the racists and anti-Semitics attacks. Some are not even linked to the Gilets jaunes, and other are clearly a reach (signs against Rothschild are disparaging Macron's links to banks, nothing anti-Semitics there). All things considered, I still feel it's the usual unsavoury fringe of every group of a certain size and in no way representative of the movement as a whole.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#4056: Feb 12th 2019 at 3:10:46 AM

Me, I am more concerned about this movement becoming a Trojan Horse for questionable policies/politicians especially since their raison d'etre is a questionable policy - people need to stop procrastinating on climate change!

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#4057: Feb 12th 2019 at 3:19:43 AM

[up][up] I already said how: Get rid if the yellow vest and march for a specific goal. And I don't mean "get rid of Macron", I mean marching PRO something.

It is easy to be against something, it is harder to fight for something. So do the hard thing.

Izeinsummer Since: Jan, 2015
#4058: Feb 12th 2019 at 3:20:01 AM

erhh.. France is doing way better on that particular score than just about anybody. Grid: Zero carbon.

Transport: Electric high speed trains, and the French car firms are pouring considerable effort into electric cars.

The only thing to actually do, politically, is "Not backslide" and also perhaps try to speed up the electric car thing.

Or I suppose, go on an even bigger nuclear-export drive. The Flex-Blue system seems really well geared for that.

Lentilles Since: Jan, 2017
#4059: Feb 12th 2019 at 4:34:06 AM

[up][up]And what I don't get is why do you think the violent, racist and anti-Semitic persons would skip this hypothetical new march for, well, let's pick one specific demand, the RIC? My point is that any demonstration will have its minor lot of bad participants.

(also, I would reiterate that the Gilets jaunes are also marching for something. I would even add that it's the job of all the very smart, educated and handsomely paid people in the government, executive and legislative, to propose specific and concrete actions to the problems raised by the people)

[up]Well, doing comparatively better is a very low bar. And not sufficient.

The difficult thing is that your average Jean-Jacques feel that they are asked to do much more efforts than the rich individuals and companies (because they are), and thus conclude that what they could be doing is meaningless in the face of all the pollution the rich individuals and companies don't stop.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#4060: Feb 12th 2019 at 4:46:50 AM

[up]Well, that sentiment is hardly unique to the French. In fact, I'd imagine everyone here felt like that at least once.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#4061: Feb 12th 2019 at 5:42:05 AM

[up][up] Add the desire for a fair and open France, as well as a pro-European stance, and the right wing will stay as far away as possible. It is not THAT difficult to position yourself as clearly anti-right wing.

Lentilles Since: Jan, 2017
#4062: Feb 12th 2019 at 6:29:38 AM

Cosmos, I am bad at this...

[up]Are you are saying that all the violence, racism and anti-Semitism are perpetrated by right-winger, that no right-winger would support a fair and open France and a pro-European stance, and that no violent, racist and/or anti-Semitic person would plague a demonstration in support of a fair and open France and a pro-European stance, either for the lulz or to discredit its message? And that the goal should be to actively exclude half the political spectrum? Also, that people should demonstrate for something that is not their actual preoccupation just so they are not lumped with the troublemakers? Because I think none of this is true.

Edited by Lentilles on Feb 12th 2019 at 1:30:03 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#4063: Feb 12th 2019 at 7:11:46 AM

[up] I am saying that if you don't want racists at your rallies, you should march under a banner which says clearly what you stand for - and what you don't stand for. And that if the guy beside you screams Anti-Semitic slogans, you either ensure that he is screamed down by the crowd, or, if the crowd is not doing that, it might be time to remove the yellow vest and show that you are not part of a crowd which won't do that.

Lentilles Since: Jan, 2017
#4064: Feb 12th 2019 at 7:48:05 AM

[up]Ok, so I guess it's the point of contention: I believe that disturbances at a protest have little bearing on the message the protesters want to send. The guilty should be prosecuted according to the law and everyone else should be heard and answered. A recrudescence of violence would of course be a problem, but one added to the one raised by the demonstration, not one replacing it. In this case, I think the troubles are still (and I hope remain) a small enough minority within the movement that it shouldn't take precedence over the demands of the Gilets jaunes.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#4065: Feb 12th 2019 at 11:11:19 AM

[up] Which part of "Anti-Semitic attacks and incidents have considerably risen in 2018" didn't you understand? There are pictures of people in Yellow vest which are carrying anti-Semitic slogans. There are recordings of said slogans being screamed at rallies. There are incidents reported in which yellow vests have harassed gay people.

The core of the yellow vest protesters, the ones who started the movement, have already stopped protesting because they felt that their work is done for the moment and the next step is going into politics and fight for the changes they want. And they are right. They won on their specific issue, if they want to push for bigger changes, they need to have a vote by the majority, not tyrannize the country into doing what they want.

Lentilles Since: Jan, 2017
#4066: Feb 12th 2019 at 11:51:29 AM

[up]The part where anti-Semitic incidents somehow cancel the want for more direct democracy or a better wealth redistribution. None of which they can get by playing by the fifth republic politics, since, according to it, Macron has all the power he needs to do whatever he wants until the end of his mandate. Corollary, demonstrating is the way the French can and do show their discontent.

If the people who marched against the eco-tax are happy and no longer demonstrate, good for them. A lot of people are stills not happy and do still demonstrate to achieve something else.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#4067: Feb 12th 2019 at 11:53:46 AM

[up] A mandate he got in a legal election. So, do what he did, fond a party, run on the changes you want, and get a majority of the votes. That's how democracy works.

Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#4068: Feb 12th 2019 at 11:23:43 PM

[up] Having been elected legally doesn't give anyone unlimited authority, even for the time of a mandate (we're not electing Roman dictators).

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#4069: Feb 12th 2019 at 11:53:43 PM

[up] I didn't claim that it did. But there is a difference between protesting (and remember: Winning) regarding a specific issue and trying to dictate the politics of a country through force. As you said, he is not some roman dictator. You can try to get your own candidate into his position in three years, and you can use the legal restrains on Macron in the meantime.

This is not like Orban or Erdogan, who systematically undermine the democracy of their country, or even Trump, in which case we know that his election was most likely illegitim. And there is a huge difference between protesting to draw attention to a specific issue and terrorising the country because you have decide that you know better than everyone else.

Edited by Swanpride on Feb 12th 2019 at 11:54:28 AM

Lentilles Since: Jan, 2017
#4070: Feb 13th 2019 at 1:42:28 AM

So, do what he did, fond a party, run on the changes you want, and get a majority of the votes. That's how democracy works.

No, that's how the French fifth Republic works. And in my humble opinion, the French fifth Republic is not nearly democratic enough.

What legal restraints can you use? The parliament have the ability to vote for a censure, but what if the parliament fail to represent the actual will of the people?

An election is no more a carte blanche for the legislative branches than for the executive one.

Founding a party, running of the changes you want and getting a majority is a ridiculously high bar to clear to be heard. Especially if you don't already have the support of the establishment or other rich and powerful people. Most likely scenario, I fear, would be all the disgruntled turning to the RN.

I also feel you're quite alarmist. dictate the politics of a country through force? terrorising the country? As far as I know, the random Jean-Jacques is not afraid of the gilets jaunes. And the gilets jaunes themselves want to dictate the politics of their country through number, which is completely in line with democracy.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#4071: Feb 13th 2019 at 2:00:57 AM

[up]It's the bar Macron cleared.

And no, I don't think that I am alarmist. Because I remember what the Rote Armee Fraktion was and what they did.

Edited by Swanpride on Feb 13th 2019 at 2:01:48 AM

Lentilles Since: Jan, 2017
#4072: Feb 13th 2019 at 2:51:07 AM

Macron, part of the political establishment, with the support of the rich and powerful, did clear that bar. Surely, this means this is within the reach of everybody.

Also, I'm looking up the Rote Armee Fraktion and I'm wondering what makes you compare it to the gilets jaunes? I only have the short version, but they are described as an anti-imperialistic urban guerrilla and I see none of that in the current French situation...

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#4073: Feb 13th 2019 at 3:35:58 AM

[up] They started out as a "we need to change the government movement", too.

NEVER make the mistake to think that just because people have good intentions, they can't be fanatic and therefore dangerous about it.

See, I have been walking on my share of demonstrations. I do my part in supporting what I consider good legislatives and to stop what I consider bad ones. But there is a line between having a cause and trying to force your will on the whole country. The Yellow Vests were moving from the former to the latter the moment they moved from a specific goal to donning the vests mostly in opposition to Macron.

Lentilles Since: Jan, 2017
#4074: Feb 13th 2019 at 4:52:12 AM

I never got why En Marche was ever considered a "we need to change the government movement". Despite the "nor right neither left-wing" gimmick, its platform (once it actually got one) was not innovative. A couple of candidates were advancing a sixth Republic, but Macron was not one of them.

Edited by Lentilles on Feb 13th 2019 at 11:52:34 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#4075: Feb 13th 2019 at 5:12:43 AM

[up] Which is kind of a mood point, they were perceived as a gras root party for change and their success shows that there is a hunger for something like it.


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