French Politics

Montenegro? For that matter, Croatia, N. Macedonia, Slovenia, Bosnia? Bangladesh? Nigeria? India? Singapore? Jordan?

It feels like the movements left the countries worse off, except for all the ones where it didn't.

Edit: What a page topper.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Nov 7th 2018 at 4:44:55 AM

I have a hard time to see the Balkans as independence movements. That was more a clusterfuck of deciding where to draw the borders in the area.

But, point taken.

That argument could be made for most of them...but Montenegro. Which became independent by referendum in 2008.

Other than that, fair enough.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Nov 7th 2018 at 5:01:29 AM

Mostly because Montenegro (wisely) didn't want to solve the question by war and patiently waited until it could be cleared up.

This is really getting off topic, I'm afraid, as much as I'd like to continue.

In other French News, Macron did this, which is sure to upset a lot of people. (For those who can't see the link, Macron praised Petain at a WW 1 ceremony, only saying he made "disastrous choices" during WW 2. When called out, he agreed that Petain did terrible things, but then blamed the press for "creating controversies by themselves".

Has Melenchon ever helped his case? This is the man who yelled "I AM the Republic!" at police investigating his party for corruption, after all...

Edited by AzurePaladin on Nov 7th 2018 at 5:38:20 AM

I don't think Mélenchon's really helping his case by claiming they should honour Marshal Joffre instead. By most accounts, Joffre was an out-of-touch imbecile who oversaw the highest amount of casualties in a single day at the beginning of the war and then got Kicked Upstairs for the duration of the conflict. Not really a very enduring legacy.

I mean, if you really have to pay respects to any of the French commanders, then Ferdinand Foch seems like the obvious choice given that he was the allied supreme commander who oversaw the successful offensives that actually ended the war. But even he's hardly spotless. Most of the military commanders of the time held pretty sick views towards warfare and their soldiers. In that respect, Pétain may not be all that much worse than the rest — just the one who lived long enough to sully his reputation.

I wouldn't say Singapore though, 'cause they got better despite Konfrontasi.

Foch is also a better choice in the sense that he was the better judge of postwar German public sentiment and, in hindsight, not letting him run a victory procession through Berlin was an error.

Though, seemingly, the procession is honoring all the French marshals of World War One. Even then, it'd be easy to discount Petain on the grounds of him being tried as a national disgrace.

Edited by math792d on Nov 8th 2018 at 11:23:19 AM

Did I hear Petain?

On another note, The Great War series is ending and it makes me sad.

Edited by TerminusEst on Nov 8th 2018 at 3:02:22 AM

Work has already started on a sequel covering, well, the sequel.

Edited by math792d on Nov 8th 2018 at 12:46:55 PM

I know, I supported them on Kickstarter. Still waiting for my patch as they get their stuff together.

No but legal changes do change that. It was part of the empire, but now it’s a legal part of France, referring to it as if it’s part of the empire still would be like referring to Wales as if it was still a Norman fiefdom. While the history should not be forgotten it’s disingenuous to act as if it’s not history.

The French colonial empire is gone, the fact that they get to have a free and fair democratic vote on independence kinda proves that the “they’re not self-governing” line is bullshit.

Not that I don’t see the logic for independence, wanting local control over natural resources makes total sense, especially in the face of large international companies, but I’d suspect that that’s a better push in of itself than independence that would enable it.

The UN disagrees with you. [1]

Edited by Oazard on Nov 8th 2018 at 9:30:49 AM

The UN definition isn’t an objective one, it’s a purely political one, notice how places that have voted for their current status (like Gibraltar) are on the list but places having widespread oppression (like Tibet) are not.

The list isn’t a list of colonised territories, it’s a list of territories that the committee members want to call colonised, the two things are not the same thing.

Yeah, the Decolonization Committee has been something of a joke due to its...."selective" decision making process.

...Okay. I don't think the Kanak necessarily agree with your summation there, which would be why this whole thing started in the first place. If France doesn't want to have a constant string of independence movements and accusations of colonialism, maybe they should do more to help reduce wealth inequality on the islands? Because it feels like we are putting the onus on the Kanak to do everything and then criticizing them when they don't do things exactly as we want to.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Nov 8th 2018 at 10:29:53 AM

On a different topic:

Riots related to the yellow-jacket movement (initially marching against an increased fuel tax, now seems to have become a general anti-Macron movement) broke out in Paris yesterday. Apparently the Arc de Triomphe got roughed up pretty bad, and the pictures online are showing a lot of torched cars.

From some sources, it seems to be Paris' worst riot since May '68.

This doesn't seem like the most coherent of protest movements.

What specific changes do they want, specifically?

Dunno. Outside of a revocation of the Fuel-Tax increase? Seems mostly to be a general protest against the cost of living. NPR's article mentions that there is no real clearly defined leader, either.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Dec 2nd 2018 at 3:54:35 PM

It started as protests against the fuel price increase but from their own admittance it's more generally a protest against the government in general. Which is why every single party in opposition from far left to far right has been able to support the movement.

See, that's why I'm not overly sympathetic to this movement (though that's just from an outsider's perspective, of course). When you protest, you should be protesting something specific. Otherwise it's just a disorganized ragefest, and in this case, rioting without a clear cause. Not that there aren't legitimate things to protest. But this isn't a productive way to bring about change.

The rioting, however, is mostly blamed on both far-right and far-left radicals that have infiltrated the movement, as well as generic "casseurs" who are more interested in pillaging and battling the police that truly protesting.

With this recent violent escalation, the public's sympathy for the movement in general might be crumbling fast, though. The opposition parties are already distancing themselves.

Edited by StFan on Dec 2nd 2018 at 10:24:57 AM

Is this movement more far-right or far-left? The fact that one can't really be sure really underlines the lack of a clear direction.

Non-French media seems really eager to paint it as an anti-EU movement, even though it started as a protest against Macron's domestic policy.

That's because Macron is openly pro-European. They just love the narrative that he will fail badly and that the front nationale will be in power next. which I doubt. Should Macron not getting a second terms (and that isn't said, a lot can change until then and it looks like the French economy is actually picking up), I have the feeling that France will swing back to the left instead.

Yeah, we'd likely see President Melenchon before President Le Pen.

On the protests: Although I can sympathize with wanting to flip the bird at Macron, maybe breaking parts of the Arc de Triomph is not the best way to go about it.

I don't really know if its either. It seems to be more just an expression of simmering discontent rather than any particular ideology.