Alternate history scenarios, ideas, general questions and miscellaneous points

Well, the most obvious point of departure for China would be if one of the historical dynasties never stabilized, but degenerated into general war and chaos. The Tang would work. If some sort of multi state arrangement arises out of that later and becomes stable, it might bear some resemblance to post Fuedal Europe.

I'm gonna be honest...have you actually read the summary for the map and my idea based on it? You keep bringing up these 19th century Po Ds when I'm specifically asking for:

-A Po D for china during the early Middle Ages (less than three hundred years after the fall of the western Roman Empire)

-How Charlemagne can make it so the HRE has a strong foundation to survive as a truly unified imperial realm before he dies in 814, so that the HRE can function like the Chinese dynasties (strong centralized rule)

Please, read the map and its summary, and the TL background/questions I've already provided. I'm not trying to sound rude or something, but you're not really focusing on my question and the information I've given with it.

Do you think there's any point during the Tang that could have started the collapse before the An Lushan Rebellion? Even though I'm asking for a Po D during the early European Middle Ages, what would you say about a Po D during either of these three periods:

-Sixteen Kingdoms (304-439)

-Northern and Southern Dynasties (420-589)

-Sui Dynasty (581-618)

What do you think? Do you think 812 CE is too late for China to completely fall apart (since the OTL Middle Ages lasted from the fall of western Rome in 476 to the fall of Constantinople in 1453)?

THAT'S THE PROBLEM. I can't make heads or tales of your map. There's too much going on and no real relevance to how it used to be. You might as well just start from scratch with fictional nations.

Okay, I am going to explain this to you again, because to be very blunt with you, Belisaurius, I'm getting really tired of having to explain what I'm asking as if though I'm talking to a ten year old.

I am trying to write a story based off THIS MAP. I put that in all caps because I want you to look at the map, and I also want you to read the accompanying summary of the map's scenario. I want you to do both of those several times before you even finish reading the rest of this post, okay?

What I want to do in my story is try to write a TL based on a world where, as shown in that map (and the original short story it is based on), Asia and Europe switched places from OTL. I want to also do it as plausibly as possible. I do not want to just handwave it as "mirror world," I want to try to see how such a mirror world came into being.

To do this, I am looking for answers to two important questions:

-What the Po D will be to have China completely fall apart during the early Middle Ages, with the Po D occurring before 800 CE

-How to get the HRE to build a strong, stable, centralized foundation for itself before Charlemagne's death in 814

What you keep doing, Belisaurius, is referring to 19th century matters when I am looking for a Po D before 800 CE. Even when Marquis outright referenced things from the map, you kept referring to events and institutions from after 800 CE rather than the time period that I was aksing for. You didn't even remotely seem to catch that Marquis was talking about the HRE and China switching places as shown on the map I have been providing. It's like you've not only been ignoring the map, you've been ignoring everything I have been outright asking for. PLEASE, STOP DOING THAT, AND FOCUS ON WHAT I AM ACTUALLY ASKING FOR.

Lastly, stop addressing it as "your map." Address it as "the map", because it is not my map. It was created by someone else.

Edited by SciFiSlasher on Dec 18th 2018 at 7:00:22 AM

Then Allow Me To Simplify My Answer.

I can't do it. The map has nothing to do with history at all and I can't figure out how it would come to be.

There's a laundry list of reasons for this but I don't think you care.

Belisaurius, do you not realize what thread this is on? This is the alternate history thread. Of course it has nothing to do with out history at all, because it is a completely different history from ours. What I am asking for is help in writing a TL trying to see how such a world might have come to exist. I've asked two specific questions about China during the early European Middle Ages and the early years of the HRE, and yet, you haven't even tried to come up with anything. You've just thrown your hands up every time I've repeated what I'm actually asking for.

I think the reason you won't even tell me why you can't answer my questions, is because you just don't even want to make the effort to answer them. That's really disingenuous.

You're right. I don't want to do it. Because it's 700-1000 years of WORLD WIDE HISTORY. I don't have the time required to learn about every nation and every event over the last millenia nor do I have the motivation to try. My best guesses would be entirely uneducated and worthless for anything.

More to the point, I rarely run an alt history in reverse. It's just not fun as you're looking up shit rather than imagining what will happen in a given scenario. With two fixed points it's nothing but drudgery .

Honestly, I'm not even asking for a full history, I'm just asking for an answer to the two questions I have for China during that time period, and the HRE in the early years. You seem to at least know something about the latter.

I think you're operating from a faulty premise. I dont think Europe arose to become the most advanced set of nation-states because they completely fell apart during the so-called "Dark Ages." I don't think that the chaos was as devastating as it is protrayed in the popular culture, and I don't that that had much to do with the Age of Exploration, the rise of Monarchy, or The Enlightenment anyway. If you want a simple formula (which is ok because ultimately, we are just trying to construct a semi-plausible justification for a work of fiction), then I would suggest that it was the competition between functioning nation states that provided the main impetus. What you need is 3-5 centralized nations competing with each other to acheive economic and military preeminence. How they arrive at centralized nation states in competition with each other is probably less important. And, in fact, what I am saying is that the Tang Dynasty can never happen in the first place. That would place your POD somewhat earlier (618 AD, by your reckoning).

@Bel- IIUC, the map itself was the creation of Olaf Stapledon, a semi-obscure sci-fi author from the early 20th century (he wrote really fascinating stories with a strong historical bent, they are well worth looking up). OP is simply trying to riff off of that. So he hasnt given himself any creative leeway here—he wants to use the map as it stands, not simplify it or create his own. Think of it as a challenging writing exercise. It shouldn't be necessary to understand the map as a whole—I simply looked to see what was located in Central China and tried to figure out how to make a simplified Europe out of that.

Edited by DeMarquis on Dec 19th 2018 at 9:17:57 AM

I did, you called it a 19th century Po D.

Edited by Belisaurius on Dec 19th 2018 at 1:47:27 PM

Well, the map was created by another member of AH.com, so the map itself is something more complex that was based on Stapledon's original story. I don't want to leave it completely unchanged, though; I want to make changes for the TL I want to do. If anything, I want to make it even more of a mirror world than it is presented in either Stapledon's story or the map. For example:

- The Magyars as the Mongols of Europe

- The Khanate of Ind collapsing in 1918 after the first Global War, similar to its OTL equivalent (the Ottomans)

- Dali and Viet as separate countries (as the Asian Spain and Portugal, respectively)

- Hokkaido/the Ainu as Ireland/the Irish

If the Tang had failed to form in 618, however...what do you think of 581 as an earlier Po D? What if the Sui had failed to bring the Northern and Southern dynasties back together, or had only done so very briefly before failing to a degree that led to the utter disintegration of Chinese unity? From what I understand, the reason western Rome is considered to have ultimately fallen in 476 CE is because Odoacer, rather than simply declaring himself the new emperor of Rome, decided to make himself a vassal of eastern Rome. What similarities, then, might we see in the period of the Sixteen Kingdoms-when China was ruled by non-Han tribes-up to the Sui Dynasty? I mean, it's not like Rome didn't have its own fragmentations before 476 (the Crisis of the Third Century says hello). Do we have any evidence as to whether or not any of the non-Han kingdoms declared themselves the direct successors of the previous Chinese emperors?

I think you may be overthinking it. What is this timeline ultimately for? Is it a standalone exercise in alternative world building or are you providing a platform for stories and rpg campaigns?

As I said in my earlier messages, the TL is ultimately about the Asia of the mirror world replacing our Asia in the November of 2012. However, I still want to make the mirror world that that Asia is from a plausible one, both in the information that our world will learn from them and a rundown of their history before they are sent to our world. If you have ever heard of or read the TL Arose From Out the Azure Main, I want to go for that level of plausibility and detail.

I've never heard of it, but given that you earlier cited Olaf Stapledon as an influence, I can guess what you level of detail you are striving for. You should understand, however, that man was a genius, and few could hope to emulate him. In most cases, its better to focus more of your energy on characterization and writing style, and leave the reader to imagine their own background details. If you are determined to go through with this, you might consider bringing in some co-writers to help you. Collaboartion could help reduce the research burden and generate some creative ideas. In any case, good luck with it.

I've been making an Alternate History, which falls into Satire/Parody/Pastiche, although where it'd fit on Sliding Scale of Alternate History Plausibility is anyone's guess.

Point of divergence - haven't fully decided, either the 1990s or maybe the mid-2000s.

I'm trying to work out how to write it well so it's interesting (bear in mind, this is a collaborative work written by me and a friend, so two people).

We've got the setting - the United Kingdom (and maybe one story set in the U.S., possibly, but we haven't determined the other location yet).

It's for In-Universe articles and possible Worldbuilding, depending upon what me and my friend agree on for this.

First thing, how to get the timeline started - I'm not that good at working out how to write a timeline, and one of my flaws with Alternate History is getting too bogged down in the small details and not the bigger picture.

Edited by Merseyuser1 on Jan 24th 2019 at 7:19:13 AM

I would start in the present, and work my way back.

Good point, hadn't thought of that.

So far, it's intended as Alternate History on certain political and social events, although the actual storyline isn't worked out yet.

I would develop some idea of what the story is going to be, because that will inform the world building, giving you new ideas and helping you figure out which aspects of the worldbuilding to focus on.

This is an idea I've been thinking about for a while: What if the Jeffersonian Republican party split over the War of 1812? I know there was a faction within the party that was opposed to the war. What would happen if that faction formed a third party on the eve of the war? Would this have been enough to deny James Madison a second term? Long term, I don't see this party lasting after the war. Either it reconciles or joins with the Federalists.

I think about a small alternate history, somewhat parodying the idea or maybe serious with Did Anastasia Survive?? trope about, What If? the final Romanov dynasty members accidentally converted to Independent Catholicism, which proves by Pope who found this some later to established the first attempt of the Russian Greek Catholic Church -which also break off from the Russian Orthodox Church as result, and converted a small Russian population around the Captial- in the 1890s-before 1917 with somehow still connect to your timeline, which in turn the Russian Orthodox majority revolted up and demanding to convert them back to the old faith before being executed by its citizens rather the rebels soldiers. Only one of them converted back -Alexei- and become new Tsar, while rest of them including Nicolas II and his family refused, has killed

In one way, Anastasia and Maria of the remaining survived Greek Catholic Romanov dynasty members apart ways throughout the European region, an advocate of reinstated them as Co-Empresses of Russian Empire for years, until their deaths and eventually fall of Russia into the Soviets.

Edited by Franco-America2018 on Mar 1st 2019 at 3:00:54 PM

I've been toying with an idea for a while, a sort of alternate history with a minor divergence... but then I'm tempted to insert a difference from our world which is not really justified by the divergence, yet it is SO tempting.

The point of divergence is 1956, when the young and promising director Stanley Kubrick vanished just before starting the production of his first film with an A-List star. The mysterious disappearing has caused a neverending flow of hypotheses and conspiracy theories about it. For example that he has hidden because he couldn't bear the pressure of fame, but has become the real mind behind many other authors, with Spielberg being the main suspect, especially for his award-winning epics about Napoleon. Another theory is - of course - that Kubrick was kidnapped by the CIA and hired to fake many photos and videos to suit the CIA's shady plots, among which - of course - the shooting of the Moon landing.

Shortly, it is a way to rewrite a sizeable chunk of Hollywood history with a heavy dosis of conspiracy theories, cold war spy plots and general paranoia.

Then, in 1986, Orson Welles himself began the shooting of his last movie, titled "Film Maker", an alternate history film about a world in which Kubrick did not disappear and undertook an incredible artistic career. Welles shot whole scene of what appear to be potential masterpieces, basing his work on notes which nobody knew where they came from. Moreover, intelligence agencies of both sides of the Iron Curtain discovered that the details of a 'science fiction part' of Welles' film are strangely similar to the competing space programs the two superpowers were planning: programs aimed at the first manned voyage beyond the orbit of Mars. This is the difference which I cannot justify from the divergence, but I cannot resist to put in the story.

I've wondered if some of the worst US Presidents could become good presidents if they became so in different periods of American history. Could James Buchanan have been good if he won the 1844 election instead of 1856? Is there a time and place where Millard Fillmore becomes useful?

So I have a world that uses real life countries and geography, but that is very soft on plausibility and that uses a lot of science fiction and fantasy tropes. A lot of it is actually quite impossible. Should I post about it here or somewhere else? Like, I have points of divergences that may not mix together and have lots of in spite of nails.

For example, these are some of the things that exist in the world.

1.)Christianity exists, but it never went through the Great schism, and subsequently the reformation. It also no longer centered in Rome, but in Germany, and priests can not only marry, but can also be women.

3.)Australia exists, but is a lot more green (either as a rainforest or temperate forest, I'm thinking of a combination of both).

3.) Technology is a lot more advanced with many inventions being made 50 years earlier. (ex. Nuclear technology in early 1900s.) Mechas and Gunnm/Ghost in the shell like Cyborgs are a thing.

4.) The Balkans and Anatolia are mostly Muslim and Greek.

5.) English is a minority language like Irish in our world, while French became dominant in England and Wales.

6.) Many countries have different names and shapes. (ex. Patagonia is apart of Chile. Bolivia, Paraguay,most of Brazil, and the rest of Argentina are a single country called Santa Cruz. Northern Brazil is a separate country called Henrica and it speaks French. The rest of South America speaks Spanish. Mexico is a lot bigger and may or may not be called Anahuac, though I've considered keeping the name Mexico. South Africa and Australia are called Belgica and Ludovica)

7.) There are espers and other supernatural phenomenon in the world. At one point, God is actually replaced by a nephilim (think Elaine Belloc of DC comics).

So, what do you all think. Should I post here, or in a more general thread?

Edited by Bornstellar on Apr 10th 2020 at 10:00:33 AM

It seems that it requires many different points of divergence; but, if you're aiming for soft plausibility, it can be done and it can be interesting. (Anyway, I don't know if you've ever read "The Eyre Affair" by Jasper Fforde. In a certain sense, it is a... how can I say... 'alternate history kitchen sink'. Try and read it to see how it could be done).

About your points.

1. Priests being allowed to marry is not implausible, they used to marry for the first thousand years, more or less (they still can in Orthodox Christianity). And in the early church some deacons were women, so having female priests is not impossible, too. The Great Schism not taking place is very plausible, since it was due to contingent political struggles rather than religious controversies (I assume you're talking about the 1378 schism. The 1054 schism between eastern and western Christianity is a different story altogether, it loomed for centuries and at that point was a foregone conclusion). The Reformation could have not happened the way it did, if some things were different. But a change in the church at that point was inevitable, society was marching on and the divide between clergy and laymen was too deep at that point (the church managed to reform itself many times in the past, without tearing apart, and in a certain way managed to reform itself even afterwards, in the countries that remained catholic, so a reform without protestantism is not impossible). The seat of the Church being in Germany seems not very plausible. It can happen, of course, for some contingent political reason, like those who caused the move to Avignon in 1309... but then, why not just leaving the Pope in Avignon? This could explain how the Great Schism didn't happen, by the way. Probable point of divergence: somewhere in the 10th-11th century, before the Gregorian Reform.

2. This seems to require a profound modification of Earth's ecosystems. Not my field, it's better to ask someone else. Probable point of divergence: don't know, but surely in the Prehistory.

3. Either you start the modern scientifical and technological developments 50 years earlier (astronomy taking the path to the new world view in the middle of 16th century, right after the publication of Copernicus' work, without waiting for Galileo's and Kepler's discoveries at the beginning of the 17th century; industrial revolution taking place at the beginning of the 18th century, and so on), which is possible (the first steam engine was invented at the beginning of the 18th century. It was not as efficient as the one developed by Watt 50 years later, but what if it was improved right from the start?); or you can make the 19th century development run faster. This second choice seems too difficult to me, since too many discoveries are linked together (Nuclear technology in the early 1900s means Einstein's discoveries in the 1870s at the latest, which means Michelson and Morley experiment twenty years earlier, which means...). So, suggested point of divergence: middle of the 16th century. (by the way, some historian suggested that the reason why Copernicus' theory did not ignite a scientific revolution right away is that Europe's greatest mind were too deep in the religious controversies sparked by the Reformation to pay too much attention to science. So, no Reformation could mean a faster reaction to Copernicus).

4. Mostly Muslim is possible, if the Ottoman Empire is still existing (that means that it was capable to reform itself and to fend off its enemies. Point of divergence: 19th century at the latest). Muslim and Greek (I suppose you mean: exclusively Greek), I find it improbable. The only way it could have remained Greek is the Bizantine Empire enduring a lot more, for example not being invaded by turkish conquerors: Christianity was such a huge part of Bizantine's national, cultural and political indentity that I don't see how the Greeks could turn to Islamism without being conquered.

5. Plausible, if the English kings never lost their French possessions. Point of divergence: 13th century. (See Randall Garrett's "Lord Darcy" novels).

6. In a world with so many points of divergence already, I would be more surprised if any of the countries you name maintains its actual boundaries... I think that are a lot of details you have to work out to justify every single change, but I see the whole picture as plausible. I know little about South American history, though, so it's better to ask someone else. By the way, I'm curious about the names for South Africa and Australia: why did you think of them?

7. Adding supernatural elements is not an 'alternate history' issue, but anyway... why not? As long as they play a role in your story...

I hope this can be useful.

Thanks for responding!

I actually did have a number of points of divergences for this world, but I thought having too many would decrease plausibility and be of too low a standard for alternate history. Especially since a big POD I had in mind was an early conquest of Constantinople

1.) My idea here was that because of an Umayyad conquest of Byzantine Empire in 718, the Christian leaders there would flee to Rome, only to have to flee further north, as the Umayyads took over Southern Italy as well.

2.) For Australia, I had the idea that a magic meteor (or some other supernatural thing) had landed in the center of the continent long ago, and that as a result, it would be more green. I also figured that whatever it was that ended up in Australia would also be semi-responsible for all the other changes around the planet's history. Whether because the thing arriving caused so many butterflies, or because it was directing influencing history. Though logically speaking, such an event would change the whole geology of the planet, and the continents shapes would look unrecognizable, not too mention the cultural groups as well. Such massive changes, are what led me to ask if my stuff belongs in here or elsewhere, as I am still using nations such as Mexico and China, if really different. And while I could use fantasy counterparts of them, I really want to use actual countries for my world.

3.) Yeah, I never really put too much thought why science would be more advanced. The most I ever came up with, is that Latin American nations are able to develop into being more than just colonies under the Spanish Empire (as in they become independent nations with their own monarchs) and that as education in the region increases, more scientists are made, and so knowledge and technology just increases in the speed of it's development. For example, I dreamed up the idea of New Granada (which is called Aurumia in this world because El Dorado is discoverd for real) ends up not only the nation that first develops Nuclear energy, but that is also the first country to put a man in space, and where a space elevator is built. That last part would be a sort of shout out to Battle Angel Alita (sort of). I know what my POD with the Umayyads would really mess things up with the Renaissance, Enlightenment,etc, but that's why I put my world as being essentially ASB. It's why I question if I should share my world here, or in some other section of the forums.

4.) My thinking here was that after the Umayyads conquered Byzantine, they would collapse in on themselves for overexpansion, but that the Greeks, like the Persians, would retain their culture, while also still embracing Islam as their new religion. I have no idea what happens to the Turks who would become the ancestors of Turkey in this world. I'll admit this was me acting on a rule of irony, as I really liked the idea of the Greeks essentially taking the place of the Ottomans in this world and being the boogeyman of Christian Europe (which is smaller, at least initially, because "Russia" has also become Muslim.) I figured that the (attempted) Greekification of minorities within this new "Byzantine Caliphate" would occur because of the Greeks trying to copy the trends that would occur in this world. (Long story short, Spain centralize much earlier and that inspires France and the Holy Roman Empire to do the same at an earlier rate, and the Greeks catch on and so forth.

5.) Yeah, I imagined a similar POD like that. Although, I know a lot of people would mention something about England eventually gaining independence because of Nationalism or something, so I tend to see a French speaking England as being low plausibility to most people. I imagine that while England may be reduced to being provinces of France, it will keep both nations distracted from Colonialism, which plays well into how I have set up the rest of the world to look like. Eventually, England will gain independence from France, but it will be an unwilling independence, with rebels in the land trying to reunify the two nations, which will most likely just be "nation".

6.) I though of the names of South Africa and Australia because I imagined them as being colonized by the Dutch/Germans. (long story short, the area of the Netherlands serves a leading role in centralizing the HRE, or its equivalent.) Initially, I planned on sticking with New Holland for Australia and New Flanders for South Africa,seeing as how those were names that the British gave. I then decided that I don't like "new" being in those countries names because I imagined them as great powers, and it just felt wrong to have "new" be used so often. I would then choose the name Belgica for South Africa because that was a variant of New Netherlands' name, and since Belgium doesn't exist in this world, I thought why not. I chose Ludovica for Australia because with my early PO Ds, I figured New Holland may be taken already by a province of New Netherlands (which is called Vinland as a whole in this world, and has a whole other history that I'll elaborate some other time, if my world is to remain in this world.)To get the name Ludovica, I imagined that the whole continent of Australia was named after a German ruler by an explorer, while the actual colonies/provinces on the land had their own names. When these colonies were united as single kingdom, I figured they would use Ludovica as the name a kingdom. Ultimately, just as the Carolinas and Georgia were named after their rulers, using a latinization of their names, I imagined the same for Australia. Ludovica is the latinization of Ludwig. I would also like to mention that both these nations are very different from their real world couterparts, as not only due they speak German, but their demographics are more similar to what you would find in say Bolivia or Peru, then what they have in our world.

7.) The supernatural aspects of my world are pretty important, as I would like to use it to make a sort of DC/Marvel Comics type world.

I have to ask, if I were to mostly share how my world looks like long after the PODS, would is still belong here? If not, where should I go?