Alternate history scenarios, ideas, general questions and miscellaneous points

I would say it would take a generation of "cultural recasting" for the stereotype to change. This would probably be about twenty years at least. That should be enough time for the newer generation that's been accustomed to the new status quo to come of age.

I'm interested in the alternate histories that might have branched off from close presidential elections, given they had a legitimate shot at being reality. The 1880 election between Garfield and Hancock was the closest in terms of popular vote. And there's two AU that can branch off-one where Hancock won, and one where Garfield actually got live his term and wasn't shot by Guiteau

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93, good start. Why don't you tell us more about what you've got?

Just wondering how far a cut off British colony (Tasmania) could diverge from Britain after a global disaster? The central colonial government would collapse and the starving and cold (minimal energy to keep warm) convict gangs would be left to fend for themselves alone. Perhaps we could see their culture reemerge partially reverted to barbarism. and practicing Triple Death sacrifices on captives? Perhaps like the narco saints they'd be saints in the new nation devoted to things which are illegal or sins? Perhaps a saint of bloody vengeance (blood offerings optional)?

How long might that take to happen?

I was just brainstorming, really. Though there is a presidential what-if I've been thinking about recently-what if Warren Harding survived? I've been interested in the man because of the bad presidents, he seems more bad because of not being that smart and unaware of the corruption going on. He seems an amiable yet vice-riddled man who got way over his head

So I have wondered what if he got a second chance to do better? What if he didn't die in office? Instead at the end of 1923/beginning of 1924 he figured out the scandals? As he was known to self-criticize, he'd probably not want to try a second term even if they let him because of the scandals. It might at least help him be Vindicated by History more than OTL because people fully know where he stood on the scandals. On a personal note, Nan Britton would probably not need to write "The President's Daughter" since as her grandsons have said Harding continued to give child support until the day he died, and may feel more at ease considering his wife died the year after him in OTL

The Democrats did so poorly in 1924 OTL I have a hard time believing they'd succeed even with this in mind. The question is who would be the new Republican candidate? Would the events of this timeline lead Robert M La Follette to form the Progressive Party or would he want to be the Republican candidate? That would impact who might become the 30th President

• If he goes third party, it's highly unlikely Follette will win. Not a single third party candidate ever has, and the one person to get more than a main party had the benefit of being Theodore Roosevelt.
• If he sticks, it's a question on whether they'll choose him, Vice President Coolidge, or someone else. Who do you think in this scenario the Republicans will pick?

The 1924 Republican Primaries were a landslide for Coolidge, with him winning 15 of the 17 states that held primaries. Now this was likely because he was the sitting President. So if Warren G. Harding was still President, I suspect that Coolidge would not have won by such a large margin. He may have still won, but was forced to make concession, like choosing a progressive candidate as his running mate.

So Coolidge would probably still be president? Hmm...with what you said, do you think Coolidge would choose Robert M La Follette Sr as his running mate? Or would Follette still be a third party in this timeline. Either way, what other politician would be a likely VP for this election?

I know that in real life, Coolidge approached the progressive William Borah for his first choice for Vice-President, but Borah refused. It's possible that if there was a genuine chance of the Progressive Party denying the Republicans the White House like in 1912, Borah might have accepted Coolidge's offer.

If he started the presidency in 1925 because Harding didn't die, how might that Coolidge presidency compare to OTL Coolidge's presidency?

I think policy-wise there wouldn't be much change. Perhaps he might make some concessions if he chose a progressive running mate. One major difference would be the Teapot Dome scandal. The scandal broke after Harding's death in OTL and Coolidge dealt with the political fallout. Coolidge ordered an investigation into the Harding administration's corruption and was able to distance himself from the scandals. If Coolidge weren't president, Harding would've been the one who handled the fallout, and I don't think he would've handled it well. Basically, without the opportunity to prove himself, Coolidge would be tainted in the minds of many Americans.

A lot of people were afraid that if John C Fremont became president, it would start a civil war. Buchanan had it wait another 4-5 years. Do you think Fremont would've caused the civil war, when, and how do you think the AU Civil War would go

The election of John C. Fremont, or any anti-slavery candidate, would've definitely caused a Civil War. How would it have played out? John C. Fremont was more of a hard-liner than Lincoln and was much less diplomatic. In the OTL Fremont tried to run for President in 1864, believing that Lincoln wasn't going far enough. If Fremont were President during the civil war, his hardline stance may have alienated people in the Border States, resulting in them seceding.

Do you think the Union would've won in this Civil War or not?

It all depends on if he appoints the same generals or not. Lincoln as President didnt really affect the outcome of battles very much, mostly because he recognized his own limitations and let his generals direct things within their own theaters. He only replaced them after they lost a few battles. When he appointed Grant and Sherman, he was smart enough to recognize a winning combo, and promoted them to positions of importance. If historical forces result in Grant and Sherman ending up in the same positions, then the final result is pretty much the same.

If George Washington didn't become president, say he had a heart attack and died in 1787, who do you think would have a good chance of becoming the first president instead?

Edited by RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 on Aug 30th 2018 at 11:26:36 PM

Okay. So, it really seems to me like this thread's just been gathering dust. As such, I'm not sure if anyone will notice this. However, I have convinced myself that I will start on a new AH timeline over on AH.com, after this December. It will be about an Asia from a mirror world, where it and Europe have switched their OTL places. At the beginning of the TL, mirror-Asia is copy-and-pasted into our world shortly after Barack Obama wins re-election, replacing OTL's Asia.

What I want to do is begin the TL by succinctly running down how the Asia and Europe of the mirror world came to be. Then, of course, there is all the information that the people of our world will learn about and from this new Asia. Lastly, I'm thinking about also including some "interludes" in pre-2012 mirror Asia and Europe. It will be based on this map, though some changes will have to be made for the purposes of the TL. What I am trying to ask is-how can I make it so the Asia (and Europe) of this mirror world is at least remotely plausible, and not just "mirror world!"?

I previously asked this question on the Random Questions thread over the summer. I will link to it here for convenience.

Hopefully, if anyone responds to this post, you will read that and see what questions I have already asked, as well as what eagleoftheninth responded with. I asked them some more questions, which...they have never responded to. I would like to ask them here, so whoever might respond will be able to help me with them:

-Could there be a Po D earlier than the An Lushan rebellion for a permanent divide of China during the Middle Ages? I'm kind of getting the idea that 812 CE might be too late for a proper Asian "Dark Ages" to set in.

-Modern genetic research has shown that Japanese and Korean people are heavily related, with the modern Japanese likely descendants of the Koreans. For example, evidence has been found that the Koreans are not that genetically distant from the Hokkaido Japanese, Koreans and Japanese have been difficult to genetically distinguish, and there are greater differences between Han Chinese and Japanese than Korean and Japanese. However, evidence also shows that proto-Koreans had migrated from Manchuria, and there has also been some evidence of Korean and Manchu genetic similarity. I guess what I'm trying to ask is...what people would Wei (Asian-mirror-world Germany) and related states (such as a mirror world Austria) be mostly ethnically comprised of? Tangut? Jurchen? Similarly, who are the Asian Scandinavia? By the way, I have already thought about the Khitan becoming the Lithuanians of this AH.

-If Korea/Hubaekje is the Asian Netherlands, what are the Asian Belgium and Luxembourg? Since I've already decided to change some things for this work, would it make more sense so the Korean peninsula is divided into three countries corresponding to Benelux, rather than just Hubaekje and trying to crudely connect two other countries in East Asia and say, "I guess these are the mirror Low Countries"?

-How exactly would the Russian of this TL go about becoming more Eastern? The map says that the phrase "scratch a Russian, find a Tatar" is much more true here, and the original story also says that the Russian capital has a more Mongolic-sounding name. What would the "Russian" language be like here, and would they still be considered Slavic? I guess the question is really, would the Russians even be a European people at all in the mirror world? Or would they become "Asianized" by whoever the Scandinavians of Asia will be?

-The original map makes it all but clear that the Kingdom of Liao is supposed to be the Poland of that world. However, I plan for the Magyars to be the equivalent to the Mongols in the world that the mirror Asia comes from. Liao is roughly Outer Mongolia. What do you think about the Khitan-who were from within Inner Mongolia, and known for their prowess on horseback-becoming the Hungarians of the mirror world? But then, the Liao Dynasty IOTL were Khitan, and they also existed in the Russian Far East, where an Asian Lithuania would exist. Aaaaahhh, how do I reconcile this problem?! Who should be the Hungary, Poland, and Lithuania of this Asia?

-Regarding "developing into modernity": I guess what I was trying to ask was, what would an Eastern-dominated world look like in terms of architecture, clothing, literature, etc.

-How would Asian feudalism and royalty develop and function differently from that of OTL Europe?

-Would it make sense for the Ryukyuans to be the Scottish of this Asia? If not, then who? For that matter, what about the Emishi as the Asian Welsh equivalent?

-I know that this is probably veering into linguistics, but in a world where Japan is forced to open up much earlier, what would the "Nihonese" language look like? Considering how English and German are quite similar Germanic languages, but Japanese and Korean have very little in common despite the opposite being true for those languages' respective people's genetics, how much in common would the tongues of Nihon, Wei, and Hubaekje (and such) have? For the record, since the original short story says that the "French" Chinese woman's daughter is going to a university in Canton, which is where the France equivalent of Qi is, I've decided that "Qinese" will be Cantonese, and will also be the main language of what I've decided to be the Asian Monaco, Hong Kong.

-Honestly...what do you guys think a Japan that is forced to open much earlier would even look like overall?

-Who would be the Asian equivalent to the Jews? I was talking with a former peer about this, and he suggested the merchants of East Asia, due to a similar status of being a people associated with commerce while being utterly despised for it. Like Christian Antisemitism, it even had roots in religious/philosophical beliefs (the merchants being seen as undesirable in Confucianism due to attaining success off others' money). There is the fact, though, that this was and would be more a class-based hatred than an ethno-religious one. However, you also have the really "undesirable" groups throughout Asia, such as the Japanese burakumin, Indian dalits, Korean baekjeong, and the Tanka scattered throughout China. So, who are the Asian Jews, and for that matter, the Romani?

-How would religion function in an Asia-dominated world? I know that Buddhism has had its own dirty history, despite what many think, and that Shinto was also twisted by Imperial Japan. Would there be any Asian version of Christianity and its many schisms and (often violent) infighting? What about religious fundamentalism? Would the Russia of such a world ever even become Orthodox, as that map's creator says that they remain, or would they become converted to some East Asian belief?

Those are all the questions I have so far. I'm sorry about how long this whole post was, and especially if no one even responds to this, I'm sorry about digging up a thread that seemed to be dead just for the purposes of a future AH work.

I know that I'm being ridiculous with this double post...but seriously, are there any tropers who might know about late Tang-era East/SE Asia, and also Europe during the beginnings of the HRE? I really need some information for this TL, some answers to my questions. I really want to do this TL, and I hope to do it soon.

Here is the map that this idea is based on, again, for much easier and more immediate reference than in the last post.

I am afraid that the extent of your questions may exceed the expertise of anyone in these threads. I certainly do not feel competant to discuss the genetic lineage of Korean/Japanese people with any confidence. I would recommend that you focus on one issue at a time, and that you simplify it to the point that anyone, even without any background knowledge in the topic, could contribute to the conversation.

Or, if that will not meet your needs, then Im afraid that you may have to take this to a more specialized forum.

Okay, okay, I'll try to take this question-by-question, and see if anyone responds. As such, I will rephrase my question.

I want to write an AH story based off this idea. The story itself will be about the Asia-as-Europe from the mirror world replacing our timeline's Asia in late 2012. However, there will still be a brief summary of how the Asia and Europe of the mirror world swapped their OTL places before I get into the actual ISOT and story. Not to mention, of course, what our world would learn about the mirror world from their interactions with mirror-Asia.

Basically, I want to see how Asia and Europe came to take each other's places in the mirror world. I don't want to handwave it as just "it's a mirror world!" I want to make it as plausible as possible when it comes to explaining how it became a mirror world. As such, I want to start with two basic questions:

-How would a world dominated by Asia develop into modernity? Our timeline has been dominated by the West, and as such, architecture and clothing styles all over the world have mimicked Western designs. What would a modern Eastern dominated world look like? What would, say, the mirror world equivalent of the Empire State Building look like?

-How would Asian feudalism and royalty develop and function differently from that of OTL Europe?

Hard to say in general. The biggest issue is China. China didn't want to modernize due to it's Meritocracy sliding into an oliarchy and opening the door to corruption. As long as China was a major player, the Far East will not modernize. Since China so thoroughly dominated East Asia it would be difficult to say how the world would change culturally.

The Big Reason that Europe became so dominant was because they were basically always at war. Starting in the 1300s it's hard to find a 20 year stretch of time where someone wasn't trying to murder their neighbor. Nation-states that couldn't get their shit together fell quickly and the geography of Europe made holding too much territory difficult. A European nation NEEDED to be at the forefront of weapons and tactics or they'd be gone within a generation.

And then Napoleon beat the crap out of them anyway.

But back on topic, the best option for the Far East to modernize is actually Korea. They've got a strong intellectual bent, a written language that translates well into movable type, and by the end of the 16th century a STRONG desire to not get conquered again. I'd say they're one interogated Samurai away from demanding trade agreements with the Dutch. Korea has massive iron and coal deposits so they could quickly industrialize, creating ironclads in a similar vein to the Turtle Ships, and eventually swallow up Japan and China.

so tl;dr, Korean.

Looking at your map again, the main thing that stands out for me is that China and Germany would have to swap historical roles. Germany becomes the self-contained backward giant sucking the surrounding nations into it's orbit, preventing them from participating in global development; whilst North China (on your map-Liao and/or Wei) pushes it's neighbors aggressively, forcing Japan, Korea and Qi (South China) take on the roles of England, France and Spain (not necessarily in that order), that is, developing technologically and expanding overseas in order to stay competitive with each other and feed their growing populations.

@De Marquis

Basically not possible due to the HRE. Members of the Holy Roman Empire would often come into conflict and as a result the very concept of a unified German nation wasn't even a consideration until the 17th century and even then took until the 19th century to get anywhere.

Before that you had Austria and Prussia more or less at each other's throats and before that you had Austria desperately trying to fend off the ottomans.

I suppose you could have Austria rise to dominance by the 15th century but A. Austria is less German and more German + everybody between Germany and Russia and B. they basically married into so many Royal Lines that they couldn't keep track of who was who's cousin and the inevitable incest with that.

China might have become expansionist enough to send treasure ships up the coast until they cross the Bearing Sea but in just about every other direction they're stuck with slim pickings. To the South they've got the Himalayans and beyond that India which could be a powerful military force. To the West they've got Afghanistan and Afghanistan does nothing BUT break empires. To the North they've got hordes of horse nomad barbarians and frozen planes and to the East nothing but Ocean as far as the eye can see.

Yes, there's South East Asia but China basically owned that already.

Edited by Belisaurius on Dec 17th 2018 at 7:36:21 AM

/ I will post this part of the description from the map's creator:

So, basically, what I'm looking for is a Po D with both China falling apart by the very early 800's C.E. and staying divided, while the reverse happens with the HRE in that same time period. I guess, then, that that leads me to my next two big questions for this TL:

- Is there anything before the An Lushan Rebellion that could lead to China's collapse? I was originally thinking for the fall to happen by 812 CE, but I've now been wondering if that's too late for a proper Asian "Dark Ages" to set in (seeing as to how that period IOTL lasted roughly a thousand years).

- How does Charlemagne make it so the HRE has a strong foundation to survive as a truly unified imperial realm, since he will die just two years after my original proposed date for the fall of China? As eagleoftheninth told me in response to my very first question, the HRE's inherited inheritance system had made such a thing inherently unstable.

Well, it's not truly my map, but I get what you're saying.

While Japan/Nihon is Britain and Qi is France, on the map, the Kingdom of Dali and Viet is meant to represent Iberia. Of course, I will be changing some things for my actual TL, so they're separate nations (Dali=Spain and Viet=Portugal). Korea/Hubaekje is actually the Netherlands. That brings me to another question:

- If Korea/Hubaekje is the Asian Netherlands, what are the Asian Belgium and Luxembourg? Since I've already decided to change some things for this work, would it make more sense so the Korean peninsula is divided into three countries corresponding to Benelux, rather than just Hubaekje and trying to crudely connect two other countries in East Asia and say, "I guess these are the mirror Low Countries"?

If anyone further responds, I will bring up the matter of Wei and mirror Asian-Austria and Hungary in my next questions.

I'm gonna be honest, you've diverged so far from actual history that you might as well have the culture be whatever you want it to be. I can't even begin to keep track.

Yes, that's why it's called an alternate history. That's why I posted it in this thread. Pretty much all alternate histories diverge from actual history the further they get from their Po D.

What I am simply asking for is A) how to get China to fall apart during the early Middle Ages, and B) how the HRE might be changed early in its history to create a foundation that actually stays together. You seem to know something about East/SE Asia, and I really do want to write this TL. Can you please at least try to help me by working from these two points and the actual map/idea that has been provided?

Okay, THIS I can understand.

For medieval China we're looking at either Ming or Yuan dynasty with the Yuan being another name for Mongols. However most of what happens hear ends up swept under the rug because of the Qing dynasty throwing out...everything really. Chinese dynasties liked to wipe out as much of the previous dynasty as possible. Any changes made in the medieval period are going to be more or less irrelevant unless you've gone so far off the beaten path that I can't see where you're going.

The Qing revolution wasn't particularly clean with the Ming holding on to Southern China for another 18 years or so.

I'm seeing two divergence points. One with the Ming reforming before the Jurchens get so pissed off that they start a war or the Qing not conquering the Southern Ming outright and forming an uneasy peace.

For Germany you mostly need Otto Von Bismark born a couple hundred years early because BY GOD the German Empire is nearly entirely his doing. My best guess is that Austria gets it's claws in the Prussians while they're forming and has them as an ally for conquering the Ottoman Empire outright.

You could also use a von Moltke the Elder equivalent to command such a conquest

This opens up the Silk Road to Austria and Germany as well as a land route to India.

Edited by Belisaurius on Dec 18th 2018 at 11:56:02 AM