Curious to hear what kind of Diesel Punk creations exist in your setting. I think this forum and this one
covers tech in alternate history.
How did the central powers convince the US to stay out of the war? What happened to Russia? IRL They were mobilizing their forces for war a few days prior to the war (and thus the point of divergence).
How does the war proceed? Conquest of most of Europe might work if Russia and America can be taken out of the picture but how do the central powers deal with an invasion of the British Isles and Asia?
Seems like an interesting setting, what kinds of stuff happens after the war?
edited 14th Jan '15 4:27:56 AM by zepv
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
Since the Germans could break the British blockade in the Battle of Jutland, they didn't resume their all-out submarine warfare. This warfare convinced the US Senate to join the war in the real world. It never happened here and thus the US Senate retained its isolationist policy.
The war against Russia happens more or less the same as in real life. The Austro-Hungarian army has a bit more troops at disposal since they don't have to fight Italy. But their disorganization means it doesn't make much of an impact. They do manage to occupy Romania however.
The war ends with a victory for the central powers. It's not a complete victory however. The Allies surrender but in the case of Britain it's not unconditional surrender. Most nations remain largely intact (The Ottoman Empire disintegrates. But this happens after the war). There are some border changes:
- France loses Corsica and Savoy to Italy.
- Britain loses Malta to Italy and has to give Gibraltar to Spain.
- Russia loses the Baltic states, Ukraine and Finland. They all become indipendant. (More or less in the case of the Baltics, who pretty much fall under German rule)
- Serbia is absorbed by Austria. So is Romania.
- The largest losses for France and Britain are in Africa. Northern Africa goes to Italy except for Egypt which becomes first Ottoman and later indipendent.
- Western Africa falls to Germany as does Rhodesia.
- As mentioned in the previous post, India becomes indipendent.
After the war it proceeds largely as in our world. Mussolini gains power in Italy. The Great Depression does happen. There is a socialist revolution in Germany, led, among others, by Leon Trotsky. Germany becomes the Deutsche Räterepublik, a Trotskyist socialist republic and the Sowjet Unions rival. In France fascists come to power in 1931. Together with Italy they support Franco in the Spanish civil war.
Diesel Punk creations: Still working on it. I certainly want to include Mad Scientist and Science Hero types. Some ideas I had:
- Maglev trains becomes feasible earlier with the first commercial line being Vienna-Budapest.
- Prostethics develop faster. This one is based on Rule of Cool.
- Zeppelins from Another World. Hybrid airships become widespread.
edited 14th Jan '15 8:37:09 AM by Antiteilchen
Is there a single nation responsible for the development of the Diesel Punk setting?
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
Not really. But the Austro-Hungarian Empire has a leading role in it. After they realized their own weakness in the Great War they push for scientifical development. Especially in aviation. And large projects, like the Maglev train that connects its major cities were issued during the Great Depression as an economic stimulus. Of course the other nations try (and manage) to keep up.
I don't suppose I could get some help on how to include alternate history in a sort of sci-fantasy thing I'm starting. Basically, the setting includes an alternate dimension in which a lot of currently mythical lands exist and I'm going to have to change some things to make it all one coherent thing pointing to the conclusion that these things are related.
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
We would need more specifics. If say, Atlantis existed, it would make a large difference if it is more advanced and rich but if it's just another Greek colony it would probably just be a footnote in history.
Could possibly have contact with this alternate land be intermittent. Just long enough and in the right times for legends to develop but not long enough to get significant impact on our society. Could also have significant events in universe be due to things from the other world and just be covered up.
Matti23
There's the native South American Nations and the Latin Cities (the descendants of the Spanish Conquistadors and colonists). The Latin Cities consists of a strip of land down the east coast of South America and has 12 cities with an average population of 3.5 million each. The Latin Cities had their expansion limited by the terms of their surrender in the AH World War, with the main powers maintaining these terms being United Asia and the XB (an East African power block).
In the 1870's United Asia became preoccupied trying to hold itself together and the XB has the bulk of its attention drawn to West Africa where it is trying gain influence and prevent the southward expansion of the Sahra Sendika (a large Middle Eastern nation with its capital in Egypt). The weakening of these two powers in South America allowed the expansion of the LC further into South America. As of the 1870’s the LC is allied with the United States and these two nations fought together in the AH World War against the ANW (which included the native nations of South America). This alliance has attracted condemnation from the AH United Nations (what became of the victorious ANW) and various sanctions against the LC but at that point no military action.
Within the scope of roughly 30 years, how might the native South Americans sway the opinion of a significant portion of the American public to their cause? As of 1870 the US does not contribute any direct military aid, only technology and economic assistance. Various factions in South America in the 1870’s onward are publicly open to the idea of a native South American alliance or at least neutrality from America, offering trade deals in exchange for ceasing LC support. Several American celebrities of native South American descent have also openly supported breaking the alliance with the LC. Most technology is roughly 80 years ahead of IRL with the conflict ending before the Tunguska Event.
edited 22nd Jan '15 1:46:45 AM by matti23
Need help here. I'm writing this story set in an alternate 2003 where the colonial empires of the 19th Century never crumbled and rule by divine right is still a thing. Where should the point of divergence from real life be?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Well for one thing you're going to have two points. The whole divine right of kings stuff started going out around the time of the French Revolution while England and France held on to their colonial empires well into the twentieth century. Both had their empires (explicitly for the English and functionally for the French) until WWII and didn't start dismantling them until after that.
Thank you then. As to why the story is Alternate History, the reason is that a scientist who descended from nobility went back in time to make sure things like divine rule, nobility with power, and colonial empires still mattered, so he made plenty of alterations to the timeline. The results are these four world powers:
1. AEE (Autocratic Eurasian Empire): Tsarist Russia adding the Middle East, Pakistan, Mongolia, and Japan to its empire.
2. IEA (Imperial European Alliance): All European empires allied together due to the threat of the Autocratic Eurasian Empire, especially due to the AEE using nuclear armaments to subjugate Afghanistan.
3. EAU (East Asian Union): Qing Dynasty China + Korean Peninsula (since Japan is AEE, i.e, no Japan to conquer Korea).
4. New World Federation: Basically the United States with every Latin American country, Liberia, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines as extra states.
Okay first, where are Australia and New Zealand in all this? We anti-podeans are always ignored
Second and more importantly, I don't care what divergence points you're using, I don't buy your political divisions. For one thing, historically the European powers were always at each others throats and constantly competing against each other. Dynastic ties didn't matter for much while playing The Great Game (they generally made it worse in fact). If Imperialism and Divine Right of Kings are still in full play they will not be co-operating on long term basis and certainly not acting as a unified entity.
Another point is Russia conqering Japan... no. Japan is an island nation which means you need major naval support to attack it, let alone conquer it. And Russia didn't even have a port on the Pacific Ocean (or at least one that was permanently ice free) until they got Vladivostok and its surrounds in the 1860s. Prior to which it was controlled by Qing Dynasty China who only gave it up because they had just got their asses kicked in the Opium Wars. But if they're still a major power, it suggests the Opium Wars and the subsequent Unequal Treaties weren't an issue, or ended up very differently. Which means that Russia has now Pacific Port, which means they'd have to launch an invasion the long way around, sailing their fleet (and their troop transports) from European Russia, past several competing powers in Europe before operating almost in Chinese territorial waters (if they control the Korean Peninsula) for at least part of the time.
And considering that Japan has a history of out of season typhoons hitting people who try that it seems like tempting fate. Especially since in our timeline Russia and Japan have very close to equal populations, Russia is not going to have any advantage in numbers and technical superiority is going to be limited due to being on the end of a very long and uncertain logistics chain.
If the colonial empires never fell... why are there United States ?
edited 27th Jul '15 4:08:18 PM by Aetol
Worldbuilding is fun, writing is a chore
Okay first, where are Australia and New Zealand in all this? We anti-podeans are always ignored
Still part of the British Empire.
Second and more importantly, I don't care what divergence points you're using, I don't buy your political divisions. For one thing, historically the European powers were always at each others throats and constantly competing against each other. Dynastic ties didn't matter for much while playing The Great Game (they generally made it worse in fact). If Imperialism and Divine Right of Kings are still in full play they will not be co-operating on long term basis and certainly not acting as a unified entity.
Technically, they'd be only united on paper. If they don't have a common enemy, they'll just go back to bickering amongst each other. One example is that, The Falklands War still happened in this story, with the only difference is that it was a Curb-Stomp Battle for the British due to the fact NWF (New World Federation) Argentina had the support of the other NWF nation-states, wherein the other IEA members refused to assist the British Empire. Also, the story will have Albania (given to the Austro-Hungarian Empire by the AEE as gift after the latter tore down the Ottoman Empire) attempting to secede from the IEA, with the rest of the IEA refusing to assist the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
Another point is Russia conqering Japan... no. Japan is an island nation which means you need major naval support to attack it, let alone conquer it. And Russia didn't even have a port on the Pacific Ocean (or at least one that was permanently ice free) until they got Vladivostok and its surrounds in the 1860s. Prior to which it was controlled by Qing Dynasty China who only gave it up because they had just got their asses kicked in the Opium Wars. But if they're still a major power, it suggests the Opium Wars and the subsequent Unequal Treaties weren't an issue, or ended up very differently. Which means that Russia has now Pacific Port, which means they'd have to launch an invasion the long way around, sailing their fleet (and their troop transports) from European Russia, past several competing powers in Europe before operating almost in Chinese territorial waters (if they control the Korean Peninsula) for at least part of the time.
And considering that Japan has a history of out of season typhoons hitting people who try that it seems like tempting fate. Especially since in our timeline Russia and Japan have very close to equal populations, Russia is not going to have any advantage in numbers and technical superiority is going to be limited due to being on the end of a very long and uncertain logistics chain.
In regards to that, the actual stuff like the IEA's formation wouldn't happen until the altered 20th Century, due to the fact Afghanistan got nuked to make sure it wouldn't try to resist annexation by the AEE. Likewise with Japan being conquered by the AEE; although there was an invasion at first, Japan ended up surrendering after a month to the AEE due to the mysterious deaths of their Emperor, his family, and their top political officials. As to how the AEE were able to invade Japan; simple, the AEE promised the EAU aid, especially protection from the IEA, provided the EAU gave the AEE Vladivostok.
Remember, all of this was done by the hand of a mysterious, time-traveling individual.
If the colonial empires never fell... why are there United States ?
Because the mysterious individual responsible for all of the deiviations from real life needed to keep the United States around to remind the European powers to repeat the same mistakes as the British did.
edited 27th Jul '15 6:43:39 PM by HallowHawk
Ah ! So it's not really "what if" Alternate History, it's a Cosmic Retcon ?
Worldbuilding is fun, writing is a chore
Matti23
Just made a few big revisions to the timeline. The AH world from the original post is now technologically roughly 300 years ahead of OTL.
The Sahra Sendika (an empire covering the Middle East and Africa) is now called the Tsr Sma.
Australia is called Yolngu Djalkiri. South America is called Cemanahuac. Africa is Bannaanayd Bahweynta. North America is called Wakarée. The name of the most powerful native Wakarée resistance group is Pu'igai'-yu Wakarée.
The United States' civil war in this timeline is between the European descended government of the United States and the Wakarée. Without the plague that killed off the Wakarée OTL the United States has 300 million Wakarée and 25 million residents of European descent. The leader of the Pu'igai'-yu Wakarée at the end of the AU civil war is Mayataakamhsi Ka’kile.
The post Great War states of the USI are: Semipole, Choctaw, Cherokee, Shawnee, Illinois, Miami, Ottawa, Tsenacommacah and Malecite.
The island known in OTL as Hokkaido is not considered part of Japan in this timeline. It is part of a nation called Ainu Shinta. Shinta is comprised of the Kuril Islands, the Southern tip of Kamchatka, roughly the southern 1/3 of Shakhalin and the entire island of Hokkaido. The native Ainu people (a distinct and different group from the Japanese) are the majority ethnic group in Shinta, which is part of United Asia. Shinta is aligned with the Huánběi sub-faction within UA.
AU Japan (Nippon) was allied with the ESA during the Great War, regressing back into isolationism after the fall of the ESA.
This particular story has three alternate timelines called Prime (the one mentioned in the first post and above), Rust and Blood. The prime timeline only has the initial POD. The Rust and Blood diverge from the Prime timeline with additional POD.
edited 22nd Dec '15 8:45:35 PM by matti23
What POD besides a nuclear war or plague could be used to trigger another Dark Age, or at least severely handicap global technological development for a century?
Matti23
Hallow Hawk, interested to know what kind of things did he do to change the past? Did he bring back future tech from his timeline? If he did you could have a POD at anywhere in pretty much most of history depending on what kind of tech he brought back. Mind control devices? Future Tanks? Does he get to go home after the trip?
Antiteilchen, what does the timeline look like after that point? What's happened to Australia and New Zealand?
The loss of 90% of the population of North America caused the collapse of civilizations in North America into a dark age. Anything that could kill roughly that proportion of the global population could get the job done.
Just a question for the community though. In the Prime timeline, the capital of the USI is centered around 40.623469, -73.954886. Other alternatives include 42.358604, -71.022460, 45.046190, -66.885141 and 45.727618, -64.540324. As you can tell the USI owns territory in what is considered OTL Canada, with its northern border following the St Laurence River from Lake Ontario to the Gulf of St Laurence. Consider each instance as if they were one of the earliest settlements of the United States. Which site do you think would make the best capital if other factors are equal (founded same time, same amount of support from home country etc.).
On another note the current name for the city is Corrino. Alternatives are Scotia, Maliseet and Stadacona (it's not the original Stadacona, merely named after a city destroyed in this timeline). Which name do you think is best?
edited 15th Dec '15 8:59:24 PM by matti23
you can call me Ian
I've been thinking of an Alternate History where the societies of Earth are primarily matriarchal instead of patriarchal. I want to write it to show how the subtle sexism in America (country I'm most familiar with, not specifically flawed) hurts intergender relations. Each justification for gendered behaviours is going to be inverted. The "flaws" of "female brains" are being used as virtues and the "virtues" of "male brains" are being used as flaws.
- "Oh, she's on that time of the month." Becomes a warning to other business people that she's been making astute deals and arguing persuasively.
- Men in Hollywood are regulated to being extras or the occasional Love Interest because "they just aren't emotional enough" when it comes to acting. Of course, successful actors are assumed to have slept with the director.
- Most historical figures are gender-flipped, such as Francesca Bacon and Willemina Shakespeare.
I don't have a story yet, I'm just world building, but are there any suggestions on dealing with this concept? Tropes/works that have visited this idea so well that I would be remiss to forget?
Artisan of Auspicious Artifacts
Me and a friend had a brainstorm over Korea modernizing rather than Japan. It's interesting since Korea didn't have the isolationist policy of Japan nor was the biggest kid on the block like China. At the end of the Imjin war, Korea's fleet was also bigger and more advanced than Japan's while their army had adapted many of the technologies post-feudal Japan did. If Korea had established trade relations via India they could have at the very least kept up with the Ottoman empire.
With that technological advancement Korea would have quickly dominated the Far East. Adaption would have been rather quick too. Korea wasn't particularly big and had a bureaucratic management system that China did. Furthermore, Korea has significant mineral wealth in iron and coal. This would make Korea an industrial powerhouse as a European nation and without local competition Korea could easily dominate the Pacific.
China would likely get dragged along for the ride simply because of being a historic ally but Japan's cruelty in the Imjin war would come back to haunt it. At the very least Japan would suffer economic hardships.
What do you guys think?
Matti23
Dragon Hunter You might have already seen it but there's a bit of information on the Matriarchy Tv Tropes page. You could look into several real life matriarchal societies
Curious to know what Korea gets up to. Do they attempt to build up an empire? How does Korea get along with the European empires? Is there a world war against them?
My alternate history attempts to show that the cultures change as time goes by. I've purposely inserted new elements into all the cultures that don't exist OTL to show that cultures change and evolve over time. Wondering if people will pick up on this or just think that I've made a mistake with the cultures portrayed?
It's never explicitly explained what is happening, new cultural practices just randomly appear and disappear during the story and some characters end up creating new elements themselves. During the Cemanahuac story arc no explanation is given. The cultures of what we would call South America (Mayan, Aztec etc.) just start looking quite different from OTL due to roughly 400 years of divergence.
edited 22nd Dec '15 8:43:33 PM by matti23
you can call me Ian
I hadn't, thank you.
How big of an Australian Empire is possible and how might this be achieved?
edited 28th Dec '15 8:53:47 PM by zepv
When it comes to alternate history I admit that I often have a preference for small scale changes over large scale ones. One I've considered for quite a while is a world in which Italian Air Marshal and Libyan governor Italo Balbo avoided getting shot down by friendly fire before the start of the North African campaign he was supposed to lead in 1940.
Would it have changed the outcome of the war? Almost certainly not. But given that Balbo was a heck of a lot more competent than Graziani, who took his place after he died (not that more competent than Graziani is much of a complement) you might well have seen a better performance from the Italians, resulting a more prolonged Britain vs Italy campaign without the need for almost immediate German intervention. Again, it wouldn't change the war, but it would certainly make for an interesting story in and of itself.
So I have created an Alternate History Diesel Punk setting. What do you guys think? How possible is it? It can have some implausible stuff but should not have outright impossible things.
Point of Divergence: Italy joins the Central Powers in World War I. (They got promised to be given Corsica and the French northern African colonies)
Effects on the war:
- Ottoman and Italian forces, aided by the Germans take Egypt and the Suez Canal.
Cutting of the fast route to India for the Royal Navy.Immediate aftereffects:
Further effects: