Misused (alt titles crowner 14 April 2019): Ghost Lights

This came to light in IP.

The page is written specifically about the Japanese trope of enveloping a person in a blue flame-like light to indicate that they are possessed by (or are) a ghost.

Probably about half the examples on the page are of the Western "will-o-the-wisp" which may be a ghost but usually isn't.

This needs to be fixed.

Merge with Will-o'-the-Wisp.

That's the problem. Will-o'-the-Wisp is already a redirect to it, even though the two tropes are quite different.

The Japanese version (Ghost Lights) is "blue lights around a person indicate that they are either possessed by a ghost or a ghost themselves."

The Western Will-O-The-Wisp 1)isn't always blue, 2) isn't usually attached to or surrounding a person, 3) isn't a signal of ghostly possession, 4 appears in desolate or lonely places and 5) leads travelers astray, usually into danger (or more danger).

The redirect is only part of the problem. I think there may also be a missing Supertrope for ghostly/unearthly lights in general, and the name Ghost Lights is too broad. It would be ideal for the Missing Supertrope that would encompass the Will o the wisp, the "ghosts glow faintly" trope in Western works, and the Japanese trope that's currently using the name.

edited 27th Sep '14 5:33:58 PM by Madrugada

I can think of Will-o'-the-Wisp to be split off - that seems to be its own trope. The Japanese trope can get its own page, too. Question, is there a term for it?

eta: Apparently, it's hitodama.

edited 28th Sep '14 3:08:55 AM by SeptimusHeap

Please, please don't change the name to "hitodama".

Why not? In this case, it a situation where the Japanese have a thing, and a name for that thing. The Western cultures don't have the same thing and we don't have a name for it in English (or any other western language I can find.)

It's not just using a Japanese word for the hell of it. It's using the correct name for the trope. Like Kimono.

Hitodama Light or somesuch is also a candidate to give a hint to folks who don't know Japanese at all, and it has precedent in Shōnen Demographic and Ryokan Inn.

I think having a Japanese name would be okay in this case. Still think Ghost Lights should redirect to it. I've heard that term refer to the Japanese version far more often than Western variants.

There is an overlap, but I don't think that's a problem for splitting.

edited 28th Sep '14 7:50:10 AM by AnotherDuck

I see it used (in the world) as a work name as well, so I actually support a disambiguation.

"Hitodama Light or somesuch is also a candidate to give a hint to folks who don't know Japanese at all"

This would be the reason why you would not use a Japanese term to begin with.

Well, that part of the trope is Japanese and hitodama is the term used for it, so having a Japanese name in the name is reasonable - unless someone wants to propose another name.

Why would we give a trope a name that is unknown to most TV Tropes users and to virtually everyone outside the wiki?

Name already in use > stuff we make up.

Naming a Trope

Millions of people are using that name and any name we make up will be unknown by them.

edited 28th Sep '14 10:02:32 AM by m8e

"...but don't use just any pre-existing term. Some pre-existing terms are admittedly opaque, require knowledge of a certain Trope Namer, have been forgotten by the public consciousness (or just never caught on in the first place)."

A name in a foreign language that is wholly unknown outside the anime fandom community certainly fails this test.

The name is not "wholly unknown outside of the anime fandom". Google gives me lots of non-anime entries. Also, nobody has proposed a non-Japanese name.

Anyhow, may I suggest us to crowner the name question at least?

Gallium, your objection to the name seems to be simply "It's Japanese". But the trope as it's defined is also primarily Japanese, and there's no good English term for it (Blue Lights Around A Person Because Theyre Possessed By A Ghost is perfectly clear, but not concise or witty.) It's not the same as what most people think of when they hear "Will o the wisp", and Ghost Lights is simply too broad — there are too many things that can be included in that.

You're so determined to not use the pre-existing term, make some suggestions — that apply to the Japanese concept specifically, not the Western Will o the wisp.

edited 28th Sep '14 10:59:21 AM by Madrugada

I'm currently running Will o the wisp through YKTTW

edited 28th Sep '14 1:42:53 PM by Ultimatum

@8: But having Ghost Lights connect to this trope is the reason there's misuse to begin with.

Before we crowner the name, do we have a solid consensus to split off the Western "Will-o-the-wisp" (a light in an desolate or lonely area that leads travelers on, usually astray and usually ending badly for them)?

Do we have a Missing Supertrope of "Ghostly Lights" — ghosts that glow, are enveloped in blue flames, spirits that are lights, glowing ectoplasm, lights that are supernatural in origin in general? Or do we have it but under some completely obscure and unintuitive name?

edited 28th Sep '14 5:50:36 PM by Madrugada

sounds like something to crowner

Honestly, I like Ghost Lights as the supertrope name. Especially since I can think of lots of examples of ghostly lights that don't fit into either subtrope. For example, lights showing up on video footage that are claimed to be ghosts.

I'm good with the Japanese name for the Japanese trope. I do think both of the other names are just confusing things.

I agree for Ghost Lights as the supertrope name, sounds pretty broad enough to cover many instances not found by the subtropes

+1 to make Ghost Lights the supertrope.

I agree with Shimaspawn.

edited 30th Sep '14 6:02:40 AM by GnomeTitan