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Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 25th 2025 at 9:51:19 AM
Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany both had aggressive foreign policies, yes, but that was owing to the situations both countries found themselves in after WWI, with German imperialism being placed on the backfoot, the fascists pursued an aggressive expansion to revitalize it. Italian imperialism already wanted to compete with the more powerful European countries, hence Mussolini's expansion into Albania, Libya, and Ethiopia (and his attempt at usurping British and French colonial holdings).
By contrast, a state like Francoist Spain (which, sidenote, I wholeheartedly consider fascist), with its inability to really project itself to the same degree as its counterparts, could not pursue an aggressive foreign policy to the same level as Germany and Italy. Germany and Italy were more powerful economically, Spain wasn't.
"that was owing to the situations both countries found themselves in after WWI"
Well that is the problem i disagree with this. It should noted that to determine whatever something is fascist by comparing it to mussolinis policies by virtue of him being the person who created the concept. What is fundamental to his ideology is fundamental to fascism.
"By contrast, a state like Francoist Spain (which, sidenote, I wholeheartedly consider fascist)" Again i do not consider francoist spain fascist. I would call his regime reactionary instead. For one his regime promoted catolicism. Fascism is technically secular in pratice is tries to supress religion. If there is god in fascism than it is The Leader.
Edited by Risa123 on Jun 19th 2022 at 4:58:49 PM
Fascism is not inherently secular. There is a laundry list of fascist movements throughout Europe and the Americas that were openly religious. The Iron Cross of Romania, the Silver Shirts of the United States, the Blue Shirts of Ireland, the Ustase in Croatia, they were all openly religious. One of the biggest fascist leaders in the United States was a Catholic priest, Charles Coughlin. Hell, Mussolini even sought to make some appeals to the Papacy. Even if we're to use the "Franco's rule wasn't fascist but the Falangist movement was fascist" argument, then the Falangists were still heavily religious.
If anything, the only major fascist movement in Europe that seemed secular was the NSDAP in Germany, but I think that owed itself to Germany being a mix of Catholic and Protestant and the need for the Nazis to appeal to a broader mass of the German public. Even then, Nazi views on Christianity were...inconsistent, to say the least.
"Catholic priest, Charles Coughlin." Was this fact part of his ideology ?
Now clerofascism is a thing you have a point that fascism is not inheritly secular.
"Hell, Mussolini even sought to make some appeals to the Papacy." Well Italy had a catholic majority so had to work with it does not make him religious.
Is this thread becoming a two-person No True Scotsman argument over the definition of fascism? <_>
Yes, Coughlin was an open supporter of the Axis and a virulent anti-Semite who propagated fascist propaganda and advocated for similar policies to be implemented in the United States.
Mussolini's personal religious beliefs were of atheism, but he regularly appealed to Catholicism because he wanted to subordinate the Papacy to the Italian government and, with it, appeal to the broadest sections of Italy's populace. He zigzagged heavily on his public views with regard to the Catholic Church, but he did go as far as to make it the state religion.
Honestly I'm rather enjoying this discussion too, kind of glad it isn't super antagonistic
Edited by Diana1969 on Jun 20th 2022 at 1:29:36 AM
"Yes, Coughlin was an open supporter of the Axis and a virulent anti-Semite who propagated fascist propaganda and advocated for similar policies to be implemented in the United States." That is not what i meant. I was asking if the fact he was a catholic was important to his ideology. Priest can support can have all kinds of political views except anticlericalism and such. On the lack of antagonism as long as we agree that fascism is bad
and that it is more just "things i dont like" i dont see a reason to be hostile.
Edited by Risa123 on Jun 19th 2022 at 5:37:42 PM
I'm having a little bit of difficulty parsing this. What I know is Coughlin was a priest, his Catholicism was an important part of his personal beliefs (he openly denounced the KKK for being anti-Catholic), and he was a fascist.
Well, that's not what I was trying to say. Just making a point that Coughlin was a religious figure and a fascist.
Fascism's relationship with religion is very eclectic. I wouldn't say all fascist regimes are heavily religious. The various Latin American military dictatorships weren't overtly religious in the same way, say, Tiso's Slovakia or the Croatian Ustase were. When religion is used by fascists, it is both to appeal to broad sections of people and for nationalist sentiments. Religion becomes associated with the strong, almighty nation-state, with the "glorious past" and nationalist myth-making fascism is so fond of.
I have in fact conced in one of my previous posts that you are right that fascism is not inheritly secular.
" When religion is used by fascists, it is both to appeal to broad sections of people and for nationalist sentiments. Religion becomes associated with the strong, almighty nation-state, with the "glorious past" and nationalist myth-making fascism is so fond of."
Yes that is right.
Anyway i should note that i think i understand why you hold views of fascism you have. You have said something like "implemenation of fascism differs form country to country". I do agree that implementation of ideology can differ. Problem is that you have also used this to justify that regimes without agressive foreign policy can be fascist. With that i disagree because of the fact that fascist italy regime i use as a basis to determine what is fascism had such policy. Again i can see why you disagree with this.
Yes, I maintain that fascism will inherently be different depending on the country. There will be overt similarities, of course. Chauvinism and racism are pretty common, state-sanctioned terrorism is another major element. But if the essence is heavily similar, the *form* is different. Nazism and Italian Fascism had their own little differences that owed to the different histories and cultures of Germany and Italy, but the essence of both regimes was brutal, reactionary dictatorship.
Fascism is definitely different between two different countries.
I'd compare it to Theocracy. Two theocracies dedicated to two different faiths can be rather different from each other in the specifics.
Leviticus 19:34![]()
"There will be overt similarities, of course." And the disagreement between us
is that i count agressive foreign policy among them. Which seems to be accepted by majority of people. Not saying that makes you wrong mind you im just noting
your view is rather unusuall so im supprised.
Edited by Risa123 on Jun 19th 2022 at 6:59:42 PM
This is not a very useful discussion, I think. Maybe in the beginning of the 20th century such regimes had an inherent root quality that made them similar in significant ways. But now the discussion about what countries are fascists is, imho solely about how to label a group of not especially related traits. So, it is entirely arbitrary, and, at most, can be grounds for a discussion about what use of such labels is most useful for some (for example, propaganda) purpose.
Edited by Smeagol17 on Jun 19th 2022 at 8:17:24 PM
![]()
It seems we have to agree to disagree on the foreign policy part. Can i ask about the
"defintions of fascism i disagree with". I will have to leave this discussion soon so dont expected response until tomorrow. In response to Raineh and other tropers in general. You are welcome to join.
Edited by Risa123 on Jun 19th 2022 at 7:22:00 PM
Opostion to gay rights is a view held by many right wing parties. Fascism is far-right so of course they are opposed to them too. "This is not a very useful discussion, I think."
And ? We can have fun. It is not like this website is solely about being usefull.
Edited by Risa123 on Jun 19th 2022 at 7:27:05 PM

Then I don't think I know what you're saying.